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Gargant Big Mob list development

 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Interesting thoughts there!

So to help in, my part also.


1. I agree on A).
But what do you think about unifying the rules instead of lowering the bonus? currently we have the +2 for Supa-Stompas and bigger, and the Head of Gork for Supa-Stompas and smaller, so the Supa-Stomps are receiving bonus from 2 sources at the same time and the Head of Gork itself is only good for thematic armies that are fun but not good for tournaments. The options i see are:
- A.1: Make the Head of Gork a special rule that affects every ground formation. So the Big Mek will have the same rules as the Head added to him and increase the range if needed, or make it infinite range and LOS needed like some people proposed OR add the Head to each Gargant or only to Great and Mega Gargants and probably reduce the range to 15cm.
- A.2: Make the +2 a Kustom Upgrade that applies in a radius. So make it give a flat +2 or +1 to everyone in range or LOSOR use directly the Head's rule but make it work on everyone and increase the range if needed.


2. I agree with Evil and Chaos on his first half.
Also, as you have said, you haven't tested that build and there is also not much information from others, so why not test it for a bit first?. Apart from Fudd's, there has been only three games with 2 Great Gargants out of 35-40 games and a long time ago.


3. Not sure about this.
It's something that has been talked about a lot already for Ghazghkull's and i also have done my part of thinking and its quite complicated. But for this list, in my opinion, it poses two questions: Are Stompas bad at that cost for real? and most importantly, Why are they bad?

- For the first i would say no. On one side several people have done the numbers for them and comparing those numbers with other Ork units and with Leman Russes (62 to 66 points) which are the closest to them in function and numbers. The results are that they should cost 60 points which they already do thanks to you(58 points) , and in my opinion those numbers are true except for the fact that Walker is a higher risk when one has 6 units as there is at least a 6/36=1/6 of getting a loss per turn which balances a good part of the reduction in firepower received the cover provides, but they already are costed below 60.
On the other side, if I leave numbers apart, i think it is the same matter as what happens with Gunwagons: they aren't bad for that cost, is that Flakwagons are better. In this case, its not that Stompas are bad for 58 points, is that Supa-Stompas are better in almost everything except when they assault by themselves, for 50 points less (350 of a BIG for 300 or 325 with Armour Upgrade of the Supa-Stompas), and also they can't compare with Fightas. But if we compare them with Killa formations, i don't see much of a difference in which is better, one is more shooty and better at assaults and the other has the numbers and resilience. So i think that instead on working on the Stompas, working on the Supa-Stompas and maybe on the Fightas will be better.

- For the second question, apart from what i have said about comparing with the other supports in the list. I have no clear answer. Now they are at a good cost/performance ratio but if I were to say one, from my personal experience with Ghazghkull as i barely have used them in this one, is that they are easy to avoid and snipe, as their speed plus range is quite bad so they get avoided an later snipped most of the time before they can fire decently.
But giving one of them a longer range weapon to fix this would be putting on a list what others have (Leman Russes Battle cannon) and will feel clunky an both reasons are very bad, even if an Oddboy, a 25 points weapon from the Gargants options, or a Kustom Kannon would be fun to use.


4. I agree with Evil and Chaos completely in this part.
Increasing the cost of some to 50 points would work very well for that.


5. OK.



Also, i almost forgot about this.

mordoten wrote:
Hello!

Go ahead and upload them. Will try to fix it, I'm really bad with computers.


No problem, i don't mind the work at all. :)

http://www.redsilico.com/armystats/race.cgi?race=Orks

I added 24 games to the list but there is also 10-15 that will be hard to add as there isn't enough info for filling the form for most of them. I'll try to get to see what i can do but don't get your hopes high. If in need use the statistics i made some months ago and maybe i should put a link to it on the signature for them, till i get those games 10-15 added.

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Last edited by Abetillo on Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:54 pm 
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But giving one of them a longer range weapon to fix this would be putting on a list what others have and will feel clunky an both reasons are very bad, even if an Oddboy, a 25 points weapon from the Gargants options, or a Kustom Kannon would be fun to use.

Oddboyz for Stompa mobs would be a very cool option.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:52 pm 
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1 - Agreed on A. & not on B. Extra Powerfields allows the SS to be more aggressive with its moves (didn't help in last game though as one was Death Striked - shows their potential when there was a GG and G on the table that could have been targeted.

2 - Other Titan lists don't seem to need this top-end limit; This problem implies (some variants of) top-end units are underpriced, IMO.

3 - Stompas come into their own in larger games where you can take Big/Uge formations and garrison them. Suddenly the lumbering monsters at the back are not such a high priority.

4 - Suggestion - 25pts is IMO too cheap as it allows spamming of upgrades for every WE. Rather than reducing availability, make them a touch better, but 50pts. Would inhibit upgrade spam. - would agree with this.

5 - Agreed.

Also a couple more notes from my game against E&C - The GG had five fires at the end of turn 2 of which only 2 were put out and 4 by the end of turn 3 which were enough to finish it off. If I could roll recovery rolls as E&C rolls criticals I'd be laughing.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:05 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
Fudd, Kyussinchains, Tiny-Tim and other playing aginst/with the list, any thoughts on theese propsed changes?

I've not played with the list but played quite a few times against Kyussinchains gargants.

1 I'd agree with either of these as when using the extra shield upgrade and rolling well they are very hard to kill and the rallying upgrade makes it hard to keep them broken

2 Not needed IMO, if a player wants to take 2 or 3 of these it just limits his activation count and allows one of the big gargants to be picked on

3 Fine with a points drop

4 Would echo what others have said about a points increase

5 Sounds good, though I think there will always be whinging about this rule as it does take players by surprise when playing against OGBM initially

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Oddboyz being available in Stompa formations would be great, even if only for the opportunity to model a Stompa with a giant Zzapgun


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:31 am 
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Abetillo wrote:
mordoten wrote:
Hello!

Go ahead and upload them. Will try to fix it, I'm really bad with computers.


No problem, i don't mind the work at all. :)

http://www.redsilico.com/armystats/race.cgi?race=Orks

I added 24 games to the list but there is also 10-15 that will be hard to add as there isn't enough info for filling the form for most of them. I'll try to get to see what i can do but don't get your hopes high. If in need use the statistics i made some months ago and maybe i should put a link to it on the signature for them, till i get those games 10-15 added.

What is missing? Most of the fields are not mandatory but obviously the more entered the more utility. Knowing the result would probably be the minimum.



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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:13 pm 
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Kyrt, it is a real mess. At most i think i can get 2 or 3 more and won't have all the information required, with the rest having half at most, that's why i told Mordoten to not get his hopes up. And its understandable, doing even a minimum proper report takes a lot of time and will and most can't afford such a luxury nowadays, so people use their time wisely and focus on commenting their thoughts on the game or list.

If you want details go to my big post on page 33 of this thread or if there is a real need for statistics check this: download/file.php?id=18716 It doesn't have as much information per game as armystats, but has all the games that had a barely minimum of information that can be used for statistics, except those from 2017.

In this situation i pass on degrading the armystats page with half ass-ed game results, also because no one else has submitted such a bad thing ever as far as i checked i won't be the first to sully the page.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:26 pm 
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Great input from everyone!

So, I'm not very keen on changing the upgrades to be honest (but will do if it is neccesary). Could it work with upping the price on the best ones?
If so which ones do you think is better? I think extra power fields, flakka dakka, more dakka and extra armour bits are the stronger ones.
Transporta and head of Mork is okay at 25 points i think.

What do you guys think? And if we need to improve the upgrades, any good suggestions?

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:09 pm 
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If so which ones do you think is better? I think extra power fields, flakka dakka, more dakka and extra armour bits are the stronger ones.
Transporta and head of Mork is okay at 25 points i think.


Power Fields and then slightly behind Extra Armour are the best. Everything else falls behind, IMO.

Head of Mork might become appealing if some of the changes go through (cheaper Stompas, Supa Stompas lose their permanent +2 to rally) and you built a list entirely around exploiting it. Currently there's no point taking it.

Flak is probably costed ok at 25pts.

Transporta is not worth taking even if it was Free (cos it takes a slot you could use for Power Fields or Armour). In the old list I had transporta remove a weapon and increase speed to 20cm (IIRC), essentially becoming the "crawla" unit from the old old list. Now you've got the Push rule you can't do that because 25cm basic movement speed Gargants is silly.

Maybe bundle in some "free" boys units that form part of the Gargant's formation and make the upgrade be in the 50pts band?

Wouldn't help with giving Gargants +2 to rally instead of +1 from Mob Up because they already have that permanently, but it'd be a little boost in Engagements?

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Yeah, only the ones that are the best its good enough, in my opinion. If we think there is need for more after some testing we can always do it later.

More Dakka and Extra Fieldz for sure. More Dakka would maybe need to get +1EA more to +4 to get on the same boat as Supa-Skorcha EA+3 Ic, as both would now cost the same. Extra Fieldz is good as it is for 50 points and its the one that is taken the most now, but if you see it fit improving it to 1D3+1 could be fine.

Flakka Dakka, i don't know. It is incredibly good as it cannot be suppressed but won't do more than putting BMs and work as a shield from where the Fightas can shoot. How about +1D3 and if we see it is too much lower it to +1 more shoot or put it back to 25 points?

Extra armour bitz: this is the most tricky to improve, but on the other side is only as good as Extra Fieldz on Supa-Stompas, and just OK on those bigger. I don't know what to do with this one.

Head and Transporta don't need to increase the points as they are, as they are very situational or even underwhelming.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:27 pm 
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I'd suggest simply removing the More Dakka option as it's just doing the same thing as the FF boost weapon option. Or remove the FF boost weapon, whichever.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:40 pm 
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Yes, thats probably the best option... The Gargants really don't need more FF really. I'll keep the weapon upgrade.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:41 pm 
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How about a "Nobz" upgrade giving the Gargant Leader? I think domeine suggestwd that a while back. 25p worth?

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:31 pm 
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Leader it's quite orky, but there is one already, the Big Mek, and coupled with the +1 i doubt if it won't be too good. The cost is OK at 25. I suggest to put it and see what happens.

I added this a long time ago onto the list of upgrades/weapons' ideas i am making , so i'll copy it here instead of repeating myself. Have it in the discarded ideas part, didn't like it much.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
UPGRADE: Head Crushers/ Extra Slaverz - There is nothing better to keep the boyz and grotz in check than smashing some heads or using the mancatcher to motivate them.

25 POINTS - Adds Leader.

Another attempt at an upgrade to enhance the Gargant itself, another failure, as it is highly uninteresting. It isn’t as good as in AMTL because this list has the Big Mek, Leader is very Orky, fits the Gargant’s best part, thoughness, but has synergy with the rally bonus.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

About More Dakka, while i agree that the Gargants don't need more FireFlight and its very similar to Supa-Skorcha, in my opinion i don't think you should delete it as long it doesn't cause problems. It still has its role, and works also for Supa-Stompas. Also, more options aren't bad as long as don't give problems, and if someone want to make a Gargant with 2 Supa-Skorcha and More Dakka for the fun of it let him, he'll have a monster but will be the main target of scouts and cheap formations suicidal missions and of shoots. Same reason as when you said you wouldn't mind seeing people with weird combinations like 3 Ripper Fists on the same machine.
The only problem with this is that it will overwhelm new players and players not accustomed to it, but that's happening already with just the Gargants themselves.

And last, forget what i said about More Dakka and Extra Armour Bitz in my last post, wrote it in a hurry and forgot some important things:
When raising More Dakka to 50 points, delete the attack cap if you want to balance the point increase. So instead of 2/3/3 attacks for Supa-Stompas/Gargant/GreatGargant like its now, make it 2/ 3(4) / 4(5), so there is more differences between the machines, it helps a bit the GreatGargant in being taken more, and we have a way to make better Extra Armour Bitz with its synergy (the numbers in () brackets) with More Dakka or any other upgrades we could think of. With the increase in points this synergy isn't too good as it would cost 100 points for both, so it won't be ever spammed and will become another option.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:57 pm 
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Okay, so the next version will have alot of changes! But i feel that we're certainly getting somewhere with the list!

One thing that I've thought about latly is the lootas. Why are they in the list instead of a warband? The way they where formated when i took over the list was kinda weird (you couldn't fit them all into their battle fortress upgrade) and i never understood the idea for them (I'm very aware about what the lootas are and the fluff around them).
Wouldn't it just be easier to change the lootas for a regular warband? And then Tweak the transporta option to that a Gargant could fit a small warband, a Great Gargant and Mega Gargant big warband?

This is not something thats on my immediate list of changes/tweaks. But I would very much hear some arguments for keeping the Lootas in the list and why they should be there instead of a regular warband...

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