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Ork Upgrades: What do you use?

 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:15 am 
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I agree with Neal.... a couple of formations of 5 FBs will fly through most flak, automatically ground attack when asked (assuming no BMs) and will easily break an artillery battery (and put a dent in a company if need be) two of these formations costs you an entirely reasonable 500 points, which can hit anywhere on the table..... alternatively a single monster formation of 9 is a great counter to artillery

As orks have relatively little effective shooting, and no indirect fire, they need to use their planes like artillery and to provide much of their shooting

I've been on the recieving end of a 5-formation, 16-strong ork flying circus and it ain't pretty

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:35 pm 
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eh. it still doesn't sit right with me. why have a bunch of units that are so awkward to use? dreads and kanz are just bizarre and don't really fit into anything but stompamobs. even there they're not very good. such a killy unit as a trumped up shield is just a waste. i'd rather put it in a warband but they're pretty garbage there at least against the opponents i generally face. the krooza isn't bad, but the battlekrooza is still basically a wash. do other lists have 20% of the list as so awkward to use they don't have a place? it seems like most of the other orky lists are pretty holistic. i can understand not having something, but having something that has no place or function in standard play, bleh.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:42 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
I agree with Neal.... a couple of formations of 5 FBs will fly through most flak, automatically ground attack when asked (assuming no BMs) and will easily break an artillery battery (and put a dent in a company if need be) two of these formations costs you an entirely reasonable 500 points, which can hit anywhere on the table..... alternatively a single monster formation of 9 is a great counter to artillery

As orks have relatively little effective shooting, and no indirect fire, they need to use their planes like artillery and to provide much of their shooting

I've been on the recieving end of a 5-formation, 16-strong ork flying circus and it ain't pretty



yeah, i get this. i'm not even sure he's really defeating you though, he's just defeating your lack of air cover. it's strong but if you don't see what he's doing beforehand you could do the same with any list. not sure if UKbros get a peek at the enemy army beforehand, but generally we don't share lists so just throwing hundreds of one difficult to deal with unit on the field to exploit AA or AT shots being rare is frowned upon.

i did in my last battle managed to burn his artillery off the table with fighta bommas before they did much damage. worked OK.

think i used about 10 fighta bommas in two formations. i had a bit of help with the hydras from a friendly fellow with teleporters though. probably wouldn't have gone so well without the hydras being torn up before the run.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:02 pm 
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a 9 strong formation of FBs is insanely useful in all situations, they are all-but immune to a normal amount of ground flak, and you probably wouldn't want to fly them into a nest containing 10 firestorms supported by CAP-ing nightwings anyway....

Your opponent has a thawk with termies or a vampire with aspects? stick the FBs on CAP early in the turn (may need the warlord's help) and shoot them down... use them like a potent artillery force, if your opponent doesn't have artillery, hammer his BTS formation, or go after mixed inf+vehicle formations....

I don't think taking a big ork airforce is exploiting anything, in many cases it's the ork army's best option to deal with things at a distance, and AT4+ is about as effective as ork shooting gets....

The aforementioned flying circus list won the last UK event it was at and has placed highly at several others too, against all kinds of lists it's been effective, so I wouldn't think it's particularly situational, he tends to take 4-5 formations and attack in waves for the extra blast markers, he goes after AA first, then when that's removed, just hammers away with the rest of the planes

I'm currently painting a dozen FBs for my own force...

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:41 pm 
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Cik wrote:
dreads and kanz are just bizarre and don't really fit into anything but stompamobs. even there they're not very good. such a killy unit as a trumped up shield is just a waste. i'd rather put it in a warband but they're pretty garbage there at least against the opponents i generally face.

Why are they "pretty garbage"?

Against most forces, garrisoned mobz (e.g. a walker mob) are good area denial forces. If you're normally facing shooty armies, though, they can become target practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:53 pm 
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Even as target practice, they can absorb a huge amount of punishment that's not targeting my other formations. Unless they target the dreads, that formation will stay very dangerous to engage, and immovable otherwise.
If they do target the dreads, they're wasting AT on a garrison mob. So much the better :)

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:05 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
Cik wrote:
dreads and kanz are just bizarre and don't really fit into anything but stompamobs. even there they're not very good. such a killy unit as a trumped up shield is just a waste. i'd rather put it in a warband but they're pretty garbage there at least against the opponents i generally face.

Why are they "pretty garbage"?

Against most forces, garrisoned mobz (e.g. a walker mob) are good area denial forces. If you're normally facing shooty armies, though, they can become target practice.



i might just be overstating my position. they're not 'garbage' just really difficult to apply. i feel like i need the macro hits to rip up enemy tanks, but with the lascannons on those tanks (plus battlecannons) the dreads will so rarely make it to CC it's awful.

i feel like if i add dreads to a big warband, it makes a threatening formation, but also a very vulnerable one. it gets bumped to the top of the target list (as it probably should) but it's too vulnerable to formations with lots of AT-only stuff that goes unused against an un-upgraded warband. in effect, i spend alot of points for very killy klaws that i never get to use.

i don't know if you remember, but i posted way back when i was a total newbie and you guys advised (kyuss specifically?) not to mix warbands and dreads for this reason. in very dense terrain (and thus low LoS on enemy armor) it might work. otherwise as you said neal, it's a shooting gallery.

edit: i found that to be good advice, by the way. that and the one where i should field more formations noticeably improved my getting hopelessly crushed with at best meager resistance :P


Last edited by Cik on Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:10 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
a 9 strong formation of FBs is insanely useful in all situations, they are all-but immune to a normal amount of ground flak, and you probably wouldn't want to fly them into a nest containing 10 firestorms supported by CAP-ing nightwings anyway....

Your opponent has a thawk with termies or a vampire with aspects? stick the FBs on CAP early in the turn (may need the warlord's help) and shoot them down... use them like a potent artillery force, if your opponent doesn't have artillery, hammer his BTS formation, or go after mixed inf+vehicle formations....

I don't think taking a big ork airforce is exploiting anything, in many cases it's the ork army's best option to deal with things at a distance, and AT4+ is about as effective as ork shooting gets....

The aforementioned flying circus list won the last UK event it was at and has placed highly at several others too, against all kinds of lists it's been effective, so I wouldn't think it's particularly situational, he tends to take 4-5 formations and attack in waves for the extra blast markers, he goes after AA first, then when that's removed, just hammers away with the rest of the planes

I'm currently painting a dozen FBs for my own force...


yeah, don't get me wrong fighta-bommas are great machines. a very rare case of an omni-tool that's good at literally everything is does. cheapish with a huge potential variance in terms of how you deploy them. no dispute there.

[spoiler] i still wish there was a core kommando formation ala epicUK and that the battlecruiser could be upgraded to show up on turn 2 [/spoiler]

[spoilertagsdon'tevenworkhere] even then, landas kind of hinder my great dream of deploying dreads via planetfall. [/spoilertagsdon'tevenworkhere]


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:21 pm 
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Cik wrote:

[spoiler] i still wish there was a core kommando formation ala epicUK and that the battlecruiser could be upgraded to show up on turn 2 [/spoiler]

[spoilertagsdon'tevenworkhere] even then, landas kind of hinder my great dream of deploying dreads via planetfall. [/spoilertagsdon'tevenworkhere]


Couldn't you use the EpicUK list or either of the Blood Axe lists that are available (not sure which one allows drop kans and drop roks) IIRC one of them suits your desire to drop in formations ala planetfall.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:42 pm 
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Yeah there's a plethora of lists out there for this exact reason. Not each one plays the same (by design) and is focused on particular types of engagement strategies. That's part of the joy of the game. My Minotaurs show up as Iron Hands on an alarmingly frequent basis now :D

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:56 pm 
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I remember advising someone that dreds aren't a good fit in a mob with wagons as they're slow, I also said that I think adding 2 boyz + 2 grotz to a mob in a landa is a better option than a dread thanks to the grot rule..... in a garrison mob however they are pretty good

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Cik wrote:
i feel like if i add dreads to a big warband, it makes a threatening formation, but also a very vulnerable one. it gets bumped to the top of the target list (as it probably should) but it's too vulnerable to formations with lots of AT-only stuff that goes unused against an un-upgraded warband.

Fair enough. Just a difference of viewpoint.

I look at it like this... I deploy a 340 point walker mob garrison near mid-board with many units in cover, some in the open and the few AVs out of LoS, behind terrain. They are spread out enough to hinder barrages, and enough are in cover that an attacker has to choose between taking the cover to-hit penalty or being unable to break the formation. The units in the open get some of the benefit of cover (or the enemy uses extra actions to fire out-of-cover first) and there are no visible AT targets to start.

I'm not super concerned about a 650-700 point Leman Russ company coming after them. The warband is soaking firepower, denying area, serving as bait, or some combination thereof.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:28 am 
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alright, you've convinced me to give it another try. maybe it was just my earlier incompetence that was hindering me and not the dreads

what size warband and how many dreads do you add? keep it small and difficult to focus?

i might also be making the maps wrong. generally when i face lemans they are able to shoot from 60~ CM so

is that not normal


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:31 am 
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normally on a 6x4 table, we play with ~12 pieces of terrain, covering about 25-35% of the table area (I think)

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Upgrades: What do you use?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:21 pm 
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what's the average unobstructed LoS if you try pretty hard for a formation be able to see as much as possible? is it 60~ or lower than that on average? just need a ballpark to see if it's way off.


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