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2017 - Ork Review

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Borka wrote:
GlynG wrote:
25 points but reduce the 2 x twin linked big shootas to 2 x big shootas is a possible approach too.

I don't think this is necessary. Orks are doubling almost all the time (or engageing) it's not like mech. warbands big strength is shooting.


There are also matters of internal balance to consider. A battlewagon at 25 points is basically a souped up Warbuggy with better shooting, AV and transportation at the same cost. As it stands we're paying not just for the transportation, but also the firepower and protection that a battlewagon brings to the table. So one option is to reduce that firepower. If we're mostly concerned with making warbands more viable by giving them cheaper transportation options, then that would be fine.

Of course it is debatable whether buggies are even worth the 25 points. They struggle in dedicated KoS formations. They are arguably worth less as an add-on to a Warband, so perhaps they could be reduced to 20 points when bought in that formation?


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 Post subject: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Graf_Spee wrote:
As I mentioned earlier has anyone ever thought of including the march action into power of the waagh and work with garrisioned warbands? Will do wonders to mobility, pressing and will not hassle with points, special rules, unit abilities and arising bias with with other cc lists


That would make ferals really very,very good. Guaranteed 45cm move on Orkeasaurus solves a lot of their issues

Personally, I think start with a price drop on battle wagons and see how that works.

One thing that people haven't brought up is that big mobs of orks garrisoned can make really good tar pits/bait for your opponent - this was used really well by several ork players at the EEC and ferals also have great options there. If you use a garrison to draw in a lot of your opponent's resource, you can then actually get your troops into CC by positioning your counter assault well (or using fast moving support).

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:42 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
One thing that people haven't brought up is that big mobs of orks garrisoned can make really good tar pits/bait for your opponent - this was used really well by several ork players at the EEC and ferals also have great options there. If you use a garrison to draw in a lot of your opponent's resource, you can then actually get your troops into CC by positioning your counter assault well (or using fast moving support).


Also placing the some stormboy or bloodaxe instead of boy+grot into that garrison mob is adding up to their potential.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:31 pm 
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The way I see it, Ghazgukull ork list should represent the kitchen sink list of orks.
Speed Freaks list accounts for Evil Suns & Cult of Speed Clans (this is where the mobile orks should be with cheap transports)
Feral Orks list account for Snake Bite Clan
Kommandos and Storm Boyz account for Blood Axe Clan
The rest of Ghazghkull ork list should take into account Goff, Bad Moon & Deathskull Clans in my opinion.

To that end I propose the following changes, mostly in order to bring boyz and infantry mobs more into the pictures:
1) Increase Boyz FF to 5+ (make the mob more versatile and effective in assaults as well as defending against clipping) represented by all the kombi weapons and such (Bad Moon and Deathskull shootas)

2) +50 pts upgrade to Warband formations: Hard Nobs: for every two Nob units in formation (round up fractions) gain Inspiring (ie 1-2 Nobs the formation gets x1 Inspiring, 3-4 Nobs the formation gets x2 Inspiring…). This adds staying power in assaults and represents the sheer relentless assault that is the ork Waaargh. (results would be a very strong unit in assaults that most opponents would bounce off of… but it would be an expensive and slow unit)

3) +25pts upgrade Warlord: add Inspiring and Invulnerable save (should be an option as if any unit deserves Inspiring it is a ork Warlord)

The concept is to upgrade the boyz mobs to make them truly resilient in assaults and encourage bigger units at the expense of activations which has been a cornerstone of orky tactics since the dawn of time. These slow units would be tar pits and be able to push back defenders but would be slow and predictable. These changes would also mean less activations and encourage bigger infantry formations without taking away from any of the existing Ork formations and choices.

On a separate note:
- wagons could stand to be reduced to 25pts a piece.
- warbuggies could stand to get an Invulnerable save (due to smoke and jinxing and fields and such)
- scorchas could stand to be reduced to a 6+ save and gain Invulnerable save (due to smoke and jinxing and fields and such), I think this would balance things out between the warbuggies and scorchas and keep them separate from other units.

Those are some of my thoughts on how to improve the ork list without taking anything away, adding special rules or changing any formations (in a significant manner).


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Or we could stick to smaller changes like battlewagons for 15p, gunwagons for 25p and Stompas for 50p.

Whats the AC:s thoughts on the matter?

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:35 am 
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mordoten wrote:
Whats the AC:s thoughts on the matter?


Yes this thread has been going on for quite some time. I'd like to know what you think is interesting among all the suggestions Tiny-Tim? Is there a list of things you'd like us to start testing? I would like to help.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:42 pm 
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Had a quick chat with Tiny-Tim about what changes we should play test. He wants to be conservative for now and look at the following:

    * EUK Oddboy power fields for Gunfortress/Battlefortress

    * Skorcha save reduced to 6+

The various battlewagon changes people have proposed will just have to wait until we get some support for these small adjustments.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:42 pm 
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Those sound like a reasonable place to start!


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:22 pm 
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GrimDarkBits wrote:
Had a quick chat with Tiny-Tim about what changes we should play test. He wants to be conservative for now and look at the following:

    * EUK Oddboy power fields for Gunfortress/Battlefortress

    * Skorcha save reduced to 6+

The various battlewagon changes people have proposed will just have to wait until we get some support for these small adjustments.

That's a dissapointment and to conservative. Those two changes doesn't really need playtesting IMO. I mean one is a nerf and the other is playtested and fine through the epic-UK list. I guess I don't see the need for testing the above and that we'll waste time.

Changes to the warband/mech options and stompas are what I think we should start with.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:32 pm 
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I agree wholeheartedly with Borka. You're doing nothing to fix the issues with the list.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:40 am 
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So Tiny-Tim wants to take a more conservative approach and tackle changes slowly, one at a time? Fine that that's not the way you'd do it, but, in the end, he is in charge of the list. And while these may be very small, very easy changes, they're still addressing issues that have been brought up in this thread. The quicker we get some reports to get through these, the quicker we can maybe start looking at some of the other issues that will require a bigger effort.

There's a chance I can convince one of my buddies to try Epic in the next few weeks; if I succeed I'll proxy up a Ghaz list to try both of these out.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:07 am 
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I am also considering a drop in the cost of the Battlewagon.

I'm afraid that the Stompas will be staying at the same cost as I find in larger games, with Big & Uge formations, they are very useful and well costed.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:45 am 
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But the main point of lowering the Stompas was to make them viable on small and medium formations over those with a Supa-Stompa, so:


* How about change them to 200-375-550 instead of 225-400-575 and the Supa-Stompa at 300? This will change also the biggest formations, but at such high costs the change is very small (1/23 less), and it will help with the Supa-Stompa issue.


* Closer to making smaller and medium sized Stompa formations an option over the Supa-Stompa while keeping 'UGE the same would be:
- To remove 'UGE
- Up the Supa-Stompa +25 to 300,
- Put the Stompas at 200-350 so when adding three more Stompas at the usual +75 points would make taking 9 the same as a 'UGE is now, 575 points.
Numbers wise, it deals with both issues at the same time.


* A more complicated one would be to lower the base cost to 200 and up the cost of the Supa-Stompa to 300, remove the BIG and 'UGE costs and lower the Stompa's cost to +65. That would mean that the cost for Stompas are almost the same on BIG and 'UGE (200-395-590 instead of 225-400-575), but small sized Stompa formations without Supa-Stompa become more appetizing, and there is the extra point of freedom on choosing how many Stompas are needed or can fit on the formation and points.

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Last edited by Abetillo on Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
I am also considering a drop in the cost of the Battlewagon.

I'm afraid that the Stompas will be staying at the same cost as I find in larger games, with Big & Uge formations, they are very useful and well costed.

Good that you're making some changes and a points drop to the battlewagon would be welcome too.

Would you consider making Stomper only formations more viable rather than the Super-Stompa being needed to make them useful? You could drop the base unit cost to 200 but increase the cost of a Super-Stompa upgrade to 275. For the way most people field them they'll still cost the same then, but the option to field them on their own becomes more viable - and many older players do have a great deal of stompa models that aren't seeing much use.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:05 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
Tiny-Tim wrote:
I am also considering a drop in the cost of the Battlewagon.

I'm afraid that the Stompas will be staying at the same cost as I find in larger games, with Big & Uge formations, they are very useful and well costed.

Good that you're making some changes and a points drop to the battlewagon would be welcome too.

Would you consider making Stomper only formations more viable rather than the Super-Stompa being needed to make them useful? You could drop the base unit cost to 200 but increase the cost of a Super-Stompa upgrade to 275. For the way most people field them they'll still cost the same then, but the option to field them on their own becomes more viable - and many older players do have a great deal of stompa models that aren't seeing much use.


this is a tiny internal balance bit that should be a non-issue.

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