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Gargant Big Mob list development

 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:25 pm 
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I think the penalty should be a lost DC (with or without a fire or BM), to make it actually a bit unnerving and give it consequence. It makes things more orky and fun/risky for both sides that way.

Just a fire is really negligible as a consequence with just 1/6 chance of damage put off till the end phase and it means Gargants will nearly always be using Push them harder whereas IMO it should be something they only do sometimes due to a reasonable risk.

I don't think the idea of water grots / tower is good or worth it. Just adding unnecessary complexity.


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:46 pm 
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Water grots are not in the list you know...

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:57 pm 
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Actually it is not 1/6 as fires can persist across turns and spread, as mordoten's recent batrep vs knights demonstrates. So each time you use it, not only is it a greater than 1/6 of doing damage but it is also a chance of doing multiple points of damage. In that game it essentially killed the BTS gargant. But yes, all that chance of damage is delayed until later in the game.

I think the current mechanism is no less orky at all, but although I pointed out the above, I also would prefer, from an onlooker's point of view, a stronger penalty. Purely because I would prefer the ability to be used more sparingly so it doesn't dominate games. But I also think the opinions of others who have played with and against the list are more important than mine and are better placed to make a judgment based on balance. So I think it is a good compromise compared to a DTT roll.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:59 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
Water grots are not in the list you know...
Fair enough but they were discussed in the thread for a bit and I'm catching up after being away.

They're a minor point anyway, the push them harder penalty being IMO too weak now is more of a concern. I think it's a shame to loose the random element and risk (very orky) for an auto effect too.


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:44 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
Just a fire is really negligible as a consequence with just 1/6 chance of damage put off till the end phase and it means Gargants will nearly always be using Push them harder whereas IMO it should be something they only do sometimes due to a reasonable risk.
Have you read the rules for fires? It is far from a 1/6 chance of damage. And how is a dice roll with different outcomes an auto effect?
Sure you can postpone the damage but it can be fatal, sounds Orky to me :)


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:16 pm 
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Bit confused about what Glyn is suggesting - how is an auto DC more random than an auto fire?

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:40 pm 
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GROUP 1, battlereport 2/6: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31404&p=593836#p593836

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:51 pm 
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I can't wait to see this list approved. It is a bit of a pity not seeing more exclusive units for this list like mekboy or slasher gargants or krawlas but i can live with that. I'll try to get some games done in our group and tell you if we see something.

Second, found a minor issue. The missile on the Mega gargant and the one as an upgrade, do exactly the same but have an sligtly different name (Mega vs Guided). Shouldn't it be the same name?

Third, is it late to propose new weapons or upgrades or are you already only set on minor tweaks? The fun when making an army with the Titan Legions list is the customization of titans and in my eyes, this is lacking in one part or two.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:07 pm 
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Hello! Great to see some interest from someone!

If you come up with some really interesting weapon options I might be inclined to put them in. Testing (from my side also) has ground to a halt on this list so we can still fiddle around with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:17 pm 
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Yes! Definitely interested. I love lists where you can customize things a lot the most so i'll be proposing lots of options.

But while on one side i have been mainly an ork player for years and have a big array of miniatures to make any kind of thematic armies on the other side i don't have more than a few gargant/stompas as one of the things that attracted me from Epic was not having to carry loads of boxes of 15-28-30mm miniatures each time to play so i'll be only able to test it for now if my group agrees on proxies (only thing that stopped me from trying the titan's list till now) so i can't promise on them.


On the matter of suggestions, i have read all in this thread and linked reports and the ones from the two previous gargant lists for being up to date so i'm currently preparing them.


Lastly. to not necropost on the latest battle report you made i decided to post here:

Nice report! Looks like another time Gargant based OGBM lists fares better overall and that simplifying it gargants' fortitude and assault power wins against titans' superior weapons. On the cause of this battle, I have been reading all in the OGBM thread and the battle reports linked in it in this last days and OGBM vs AMTL orks have won 4 to 1 . If it is useful for making this list, i could gather the results of all the OGBM's battle reports in the forum, it doesn't take much of my time.

Have to say also that i like your style in this report. Everything is clear and tidy, and the extra help provided on the photos helps with that. Usually is hard to tell what is going on in battle reports. A thing you could do next time to improve them farther is identifying each repeated unit (gargants and reavers in this case) in the list, text in game and photos so we can know which is which. Just giving numbers is easy and fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:00 am 
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Thanks for the input!
I'm only interested in statistics of the current list since it has changed drasticly since i took it over.
But if you want to do a win/loose count for each version that could be good.

I'm thinking about askimg the Swedish community to let me bring it to a tournament so I can field the list against competitive armies in a competitive setting.
I think I will loose every game then since slow and low activation lists struggle in the tournament scenario.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:03 pm 
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This is a quick report on the game (3k) between Consul Avenging Angel and myself on Friday 21st October. I took the OGBM and CAA played Iyanden.



I took the following:

Great Gargant – 2x Gatling Kannon & Mega Choppa + Dakka Flakka

Gargant – 2x Gatling Kannon & Mega Choppa

Gargant – 2x Gatling Kannon & Mega Choppa

Loota Mob (Big Gun) + Battlefortress & Flakwagon

Supa Stompa – 3x Soopa Guns

Supa Stompa – 3x Soopa Guns

Killa Kan Mob

Fighta Bommers (3)



CAA took (from memory)

Wraithgate

Wraithguard + SC

Wratithguard

Guardians (3 HW Platforms)

Wraithlords

3x Falcons & 2xFirestorms

3x Falcons & 2xFirestorms

Rangers (5)

Rangers (5)

Vampire Raider

Vampire Raider

Phoenix Bombers

Wraithship



Camera died before game started so only a brief report.

Wraithship was set up for turn 1 with a pin-point shot. Gargants doubled and marched across the table with the Supa-Stompas hanging back looking to shoot things. Wraithship failed to come on, but before this Lootas had stayed put hoping the cover of some ruins would protect their transport. Falcons advanced on a Gargant and stripped the powerfields. Wraithguard air assaulted and reduced the Gargant down to 2 wounds and broken for the loss of one of their number. Wraithlords shot a Supa-Stomps and the other Wraithguard broke it with a follow up air assault. Fighta-Bommers CAPPED but lost two to AA fire. 1 wound left for the loss of one unit. Supa-stompa failed to rally

Turn 2, Avatar down and SR to Iyanden who engaged the damaged Gargant and destroyed it with the Wraithguard. They followed up with the other Wraithguard formation and engaged the second Supa-Stompa. This time, apart from the fields it only lost one DC, but was still broken and ran away. Things looked grim and were made worse by the Wraithship activating and shooting the Battlefortress for one wound. This, of course, went critical destroying the transport.

At this stage things were not looking good and I was laughing at my poor dice to CAA’s great dice. So we started discussing whether or not to go for the Great Gargant and try for BTS as well as what looked like a simple Iyanden win. During turn 3; Falcons, Rangers and Wraithlords stripped fields and caused a coupe or wounds before the Wraithguard + SC, BTS, flew in to engage. (The other formation had not been picked up the previous turn with the Raider failing to activate.)

Flakka Dakka was the only thing that I had and I got two hits, which weren’t saved. In an instance the game had changed with the Orks picking up BTS, however all the Iyanden had to do was to break the Killa Kans on the Ork Blitz and take it as they already had one objective in the Ork half to win the game. Two formations, Falcons & Phoenix Bombers, failed to activate and the game goes into a fourth turn.

Now during all the trials in the centre and Ork left flank the second Gargant had been advancing up the table, cleared out a set of Rangers and was now within striking distance of the Blitz and the guarding Guardians. Also the Supa-Stompa rallied.

Turn 4 started with two failed Iyanden activations, the Killa Kans were broken, but a Supa-Stompa still claimed the Ork Blitz. The Gargant dispatched the Guardians to claim Blitz and the Great Gargant stood resplendent between two objectives, one contested and one not. The game went down to the second formation of Wraithguards marching to contest the second objective and the Orks won 2-0 (BTS & Blitz).



Well that was a strange game, I was ready to call it mid-way through turn 2 but with the luck changing on CAA’s dice rolls the remaining Orks managed to hold on and pull a win out of the bag. We like the special rule, but did not use it in this game. I need to tighten up my tactics for the Gargants, but this is definitely a list going places.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:54 pm 
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Great report! Thank you for doing it!

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:22 am 
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GROUP 1, Battlereport 3/6: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31783&p=600439#p600439

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:39 pm 
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Mordoten, i finally got two of the things i promised done.

First of all, you asked for help time ago to join the three parts into one. So here you have.

Attachment:
Gargant Big Mob 3.3.1.pdf [175.67 KiB]
Downloaded 130 times



Second, I completed the statistics of the battle reports for this list since you took it, included the last recent two games. Tried to make it easier to read, but wanted to have everything on one page to make easier to compare things, so its a bit cramped.

* To summarize, overall, this statistic shows a ratio of 1:1 on wins/losses, but changes to 2:1 if we count wins by points. There is also a big of a disparity along the time:
- On 2015 Gargants got 1:2 with more disparity of enemies except no Eldar, with more games that went to points.
- And in 2016 won 2:1, with less games that got to points, and almost every lost game against Eldar.
The list is very resilient, in damage, breaking and capability of rallying: when the games went to points, almost every game was for Orks with no heavy losses, with some cases of not a single loss for the Orks. Probably too good.

* On the positive side:
/1./ Most battles were against the usual top three popular lists in Tournaments (SM,Eldar and IG).
/2./ There were variety in the number of Gargants taken in 3000 point games (1 to 4).
/3./ There were a balanced variety on victory conditions and Turns.

* On the negative side:
/1./ More than one third of the battles were against Eldar, and the second third for Adeptus Mechanicus and Knights. We would need more Space Marines, other Ork lists, and if possible, Necrons, Dark Elves and more Tyranids and Chaos, to complete it.
/2./ Doesn't look that there was any battle switching sides, doubting on one of them, so we don't know till which point knowing how to play this list or Ork lists in general was important in these numbers.
/3./ There was no battle against Ghazghkull lists, which could give us good info as it is the closest list to this one, and its veteran players could value this list the best.
/4./ Maybe as expected, almost every lost game for this list are in Turn 3, and mostly against Eldar which isn't surprising, as is the usual bane of Ork lists in general. Whats worse is that lately they mostly only lose to Eldar, and only in around a 1:1 ratio.
/5./ As expected, Great Gargants weren't taken many times, less if we count that people tried more things as it was for testing.
/6./ Only one person used the list for games with more points than 3000, and another on 1000-2000 points on a Minigeddon event (the latter not recorded here, there is no information).
/7./ Doesn't appear on the statistics, but i have taken note that there are options that were never taken: Transporta, Bommer, Kroozer, added troops (not counting Big formations or Battlefortress) on anything besides Gargants, or barely taken (Head of Gork after the Special Rule of the Special Mob Rule was implemented and Extra Fields).

Attachment:
Statistics_Gargants_Oct2016.pdf [50.95 KiB]
Downloaded 245 times



* There is also some issues on the statistics to take into account: Most of the times there was barely information about the battles so i had to search in each line of text and write what i could find, hence, there are some considerations to take into account:
/1./ If it says win by x-0 is that the guy just said who won, but not by how much, could be 2-0 or 4-1. In cases where he said a bit more put that too. Turn x is unknown turn.
/2./ There was people playing this list against EpicUK lists, sometimes they say it, sometimes not. I put it for those times it was told. Haven't put if it was a NetEA list but around one third of them said nothing about which were.
/3./ Around half of them didn't say which version of the list was used, so i put the month it was played as a guess but it is not accurate, as I have seen several people that played older versions of the lists even till 3 months after the last update. Also take into account that sometimes Army Forge wasn't up to date for that game, so there are some that are from some more recent versions. Because of that when the version the guy says and the version on the list aren't the same, on those cases, I trusted the player.
/4./ I have written how many and which Gargants were fielded, for those battle reports where there was a list posted.
/5./ Tried to put detailed info, so wrote it when armies were another besides 3000 points and put the amounts on how big the win was if i could find it.
/6./ If i couldn't find even who won and couldn't even guess it i didn't put the battle in the list, so there were several more battles played out there than shown. There were several that just said their opinion about the list and no data.
/7./ When it doesn't tell the points of the game, its 3000 points or there is no information that i could find about it. Doesn't matter much, only one person played with other numbers than 3000, as far as is in this statistics goes.


Have fun with it! I know it is a big quantity of data and text.

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Last edited by Abetillo on Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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