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Death Guard v0.4

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:06 pm 
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A couple of suggestions, feel free to use or ignore as you wish :D

Change the wording of nurgles rot from
Quote:
It affects any enemy formation assaulting or assaulted by the formation with Nurgle's Rot

to
Quote:
It affects any enemy formation assaulting or assaulted by one or more formations with Nurgle's Rot

or similar.

Chosen:
Personally I think they shouldn't have the attached character, and should just be 4 scouting units acting forward on their own. Possibly with a small points reduction to 175.

Real life means that I'm not getting any batreps done, but I hope I can in the (hopefully not too distant) future.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:28 am 
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Matty_C wrote:
A couple of suggestions, feel free to use or ignore as you wish :D

Change the wording of nurgles rot from
Quote:
It affects any enemy formation assaulting or assaulted by the formation with Nurgle's Rot

to
Quote:
It affects any enemy formation assaulting or assaulted by one or more formations with Nurgle's Rot

or similar.

Chosen:
Personally I think they shouldn't have the attached character, and should just be 4 scouting units acting forward on their own. Possibly with a small points reduction to 175.

Real life means that I'm not getting any batreps done, but I hope I can in the (hopefully not too distant) future.

+1 to that wording of Nurgle's Rot.

As for Chosen, are other Chaos lists with or without the character? I'd say the list should go with whatever is already common for consistency's sake.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:53 am 
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+2 for Nurgle's Rot wording. Although what about changing it a little bit more, in a way that allows avoiding the awkward note about Terminator and Daemon Prince formations having Nurgle's Rot? (the upgrade would then become "All units in the formation gain Nurgle's Rot")

Quote:
It affects any enemy formation assaulting or assaulted by one or more formations containing units with Nurgle's Rot.



And it looks like Chosen don't have characters (or the option to get them) in either the BL or EC lists. I'll third removing the character for consistency's sake. 175 should still be a reasonable price for 4-strong Fearless Scouting marines. You might also create a unit "Plague Marine Chosen" the same way that the other Chaos lists have "Chaos Space Marine Chosen."


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:12 pm 
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Thanks all for the Nurgle's Rot wording suggestions!

For the Chosen I'd been working from the World Eaters Chosen Retinue which is four World Eaters Chosen and a character upgrade. Scout is mentioned in the army list rather than the unit summary a la Red Corsairs as the unit summary sheets had been getting over-full. But that's just a layout issue.

Four DG Chosen for 175pt could work, but I'm slightly wary of being able to do straight swaps of non-scoring Plague Zombie Infestations for scoring Scouting Plague Marines for the same price.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Finally got my first games in with the DG this weekend. I got two games in and used two different lists. One was aimed at stress testing the Nurgling Swarm upgrade, and the other was aimed at the Nurgle's Rot upgrade. I'll post my thoughts and lists below:

Say Hello to My Little Fiend
- Plage Marine Retinue + LoP + Havocs + pact + Nurgling Swarm
- PMR + Prince + Havocs + Swarm + Pact
- DG Vindicators + Swarm
- Blight Drones
- Terminators + Sorcerer + Swarm + Pact
- Plague towers
- Walker Horde + PH + Desecrator
- Plague Reaper + Swarm
- Plague Ship

This game was against the Ghazgkhull's list with lots of stompas and fighta bombas. Game 2-0 for DG getting Take & Hold and Defend the Flag. The nurgling Swarm upgrade is a pretty great one that fits well into the list. Nearly every formation w the add on benefited from them, especially the terminators after teleporting in. They're a gem in engagements, but it adds up when you give it to everything in the army that could take it. It was 250 pts of nurgling, which is another good formation, which this list often wishes it had. In the future, I will probably use this to buff infantry formations. It's almost a must take for the terminators if they'll be teleporting. However, for vehicles, it's nice to have, but not necessary.

Rots of Fun
-PMR + LoP + Havocs + Pact + Nurgle's Rot
- PMR + Prince + Pact + 2x Dreads
- PMR + Havocs + Pact
- Blight Drones
- walker Horde + Hulk + Desecrator
- Chosen + Nurgle's Mark
- Plague Zombies
- Terminators + pact
- Plague Tower

This game was a rough match up against Cadians with Death Strikes, 2x basilisks, and 2x manticores. Given that level of damage distribution and the store closing, we had to call it, but it was a mercy to the DG at that point. There was only one or two assaults, and the enemy formation was cleaned out on one, and it didn't have much effect on the other. The gun line approach of the Cadians kept the slow moving DG at Bay and liked the assaults.

In the first game, Rot had a little bit of an impact from the Prince and Terminators. Most notably, a lone gunwagon fleeing an engagement was struck down when the Rot took effect. Over all, a very fluffy rule that I'm not sure I would pay even 25 pts for. In this list, I think it creates too much bloat when used in mass. I could see it competing with chaos spawn as a cheap pts filler upgrade. Rot on the Prince really adds to his metric value since having that ability essentially accounts for half his upgrade of 50 pts.

Other thoughts on the list:
- I think the list is capturing the feel and fluff of DG very well. It really does feel like tough trudging infantry that have chaos' blessing because of things like blight drones, Rot, and nurglings.
- There are some inherent issues though with a bulk of small, slow, expensive formations. Again, that's what captures the DG feel, but right now I don't think I'd categorize this as an "easy" list to play. Not that this is a bad thing by any means. I felt this was especially exposed against the Cadians gun line. Having a plague ship would have helped from a list building perspective.
- Defilers are a tough choice to include after a couple games with them (for all chaos, not just DG.) For 275 pts, they're a glass cannon that can break and be killed pretty easily. I think the shorter range of the Plague Hulk adds to this. The general idea was agreed with by a couple other players from the club who use chaos. Will probably swap in a Fester Titan for those points and see how that runs instead. The two AA shots from the Desecrator are really nice though. I could see using it as an add on for a Retinue or with a Plague Tower or Contagion Engines.
- Having everything Fearless was great. It adds to the staying very well. No complaints about it from opponents. Or any other special rule for that matter.
- The invulnerable save. Hmm. I feel that it adds more as an idea that as a roll. I did manage to roll a couple, but over all if I had to chose the save or be given a point reduction for formations, I'd take the points.
- Blight Drones are fantastic. Tough enough, much needed mobility, and the ability to get a quick little punch against infantry formations. They especially excelled at moving up and firing, then supporting for a retained engagement. They were tougher, punchier, cooler landspeeders
- Going forward, I want to try Contagion Engines and Fester titans in a list a little more well rounded rather than stress testing to get a better feel for the list in general.

Administrative
- I think 4.3 is missing an entry for Chosen.
- The entry for Plague Tower under Transports says that it can hold 16 GUOs, but also that GUOs also take up 2 spots. I think this is a typo.
- Most importantly, tons of thanks to IJW for his continued work on this list. He's doing a great job, and while there's some aspects I think merit further discussion, he's doing a great job with staying involved and working to find that sweet spot between fluff and play.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Much appreciated! I finally have a game tonight so will have some notes from that later this week. Plus a proper reply to your feedback.

I've found the Defiler variants either work better as add-ons (Desecrators as dedicated AA on Retinues and Contagions, Plague Hulks on CC-weak formations like Vindicators) or as an all-Desecrator AA bubble of doom that can garrison. Although as a formation that gets them targeted very heavily.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 11:46 pm 
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Had another chance to take the DG out for a spin. Match up was against Knights. I knew this would be a touch match up, given that DG are light on AT&T fire. Tim's list was something like this:

Errants + Baron (BTS)
Errants + Seneschal
Paladins + Seneschal
Lancers + Lancer + Seneschal
Castellans + seneschal
Castigators + seneschal
Hydra formation
Tbolts
Tbolts

My list was:
Retinue + LoP + Nurglings
Retinue + DP + Nurglings
Armored assault company
Terminators + Nurglings
Blight Drone
Contagion Engines
Plague Tower + Desecrator
Fester Titan
Plague Ship.

Game ended in a win for DG. Went to points after turn 4, 1300-850. As noted, this was a tough game with no infantry to shoot at for the DG. Engagements became doubly important because it was really the only way to reliably do damage. The Contagion engines really struggled, but when the Plague Tower sustained, its out put was decent. Considering they're only a 25 pt difference, I'm not sure I'd choose the engines over the towers.

The terminators make a good BTS that even after breaking, stick around. By the end, the formation was down to one stand, but that was after an engagement and several rounds of firing.

This was my first time using the Fester titan and I really liked it. It adds a literal more maneuverability to the list. The 30cm shots mean you need to get pretty close, but the shots are worth it and the DC and void shields mean it has a little staying power.

Next time, I want to try an armored company upgraded to Land Raiders to pull in some strong dependable AT. It's 25 pts less than the Contagion engines, and while you loose the indirect, I think that AT shots have more value in the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:39 pm 
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I played in NEAT X this past Saturday and brought the Death Guard. I brought this list:
Retinue + SC + Nurgling
Retinue + DP + Nurgling
Armoured Assault Company + Nurgling
Grave Wardens
Blight Drones
Plague Tower + Desecrator
Plague Tower
Fester Titan
Plague Ship

I went 1-2 for the tournament. The match ups we're Knights, AMTL, and Baran Seigemasters with the win being over Seigemasters on turn 4. In general, I think my activations were too low since once formations started breaking, I had trouble applying pressure to objectives in the late game.

The game against the Knights was tricky, since my list didn't have a lot of AT fire. I still managed to put pressure on them, and lost 2-0 on turn three because I goofed and left a plague tower a couple centimeters too far from contesting an objective. If I had moved that proper, I think I would have been in a better position on Turn 4 to engage. Speaking of engagements, I had my full DP Retinue bounce off a prepped formation of paladins. Oh well.

The second game was AMTL, with similar problems as the Knight list regarding AT, but worse. With my disrupt fire, I was able to keep breaking formations, but couldn't finish many off. The game actually went to turn 5, where the final activation was me doubling onto an objective with my Plague Tower and Desecrator and planning on shooting off a three stand robot formation. I scored two hits and only needed one to fail their 6+ armor save to break them and claim a 1-0 victory with Take and Hold. Tim rolled great in the clutch, finding the box cars, and pushed the game to points, where he had a clean advantage.

The third game was a good match up for DG with the Seigemasters using lots of emplacements, and DG not caring because of their IC and disrupt weapons. They did have a Death Strike formation that made short work of my BTS Plague Tower, leaving a Desecrator to scurry away. The game ended, Turn 4 again, with a 1-0 victory to DG. There was one especially rough engagement where the DP Retinue (again) engaged a broken infantry formation, ended up going through THREE rounds of combat before losing and breaking. My DP may end up getting demoted to a Nurgling after those showings.

I also had a chance to play a game Friday night against Cadians and a mega battle Sunday involving 5 people and 6000 pts per side.

Over all, the DG offer a tough nut to crack. They're hard to get rid of with the fearless. However, the invulnerable save is a bit of a fluff addition. I think I'd still rather see a minor points reduction than everything have an IS. Opponents seemed to another have too many complaints about the list, other than when the IS would get hot. Dave, who played Knights, thought it felt similar to other Chaos with a bit more shooting and some flavorful specific units.

With some more activations, a little more AT, and a unit of Hellblades to CAP, this army has a lot of potential. Interestingly enough, another DG list ended up winning. That list went heavier with daemons, included Rhinos, and I believe left behind the Plague Ship and Plague Towers, working on 10 activations.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Hello, I noticed that the stats for the DG Chosen is left out of the pdf v0.4.3, let me know if I missed something.

Regarding the Plague Ships and barrage, do I need to pay for the zombie infestation or do I receive those units for free?


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