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Plague Tower Speed

 Post subject: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:45 pm 
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So...

This is effectively a continuation of viewtopic.php?f=82&t=26882 a couple of years on.

Currently, the LatD Redux (viewtopic.php?f=82&t=26363) and Death Guard (viewtopic.php?f=82&t=30859) lists have Plague Towers at:

Plague Tower
WE 20cm Armour 4+ CC4+ FF4+
Plague Mortar 60cm 3+D3 BP disrupt FxF
2 x Battlecanon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Rot Cannon 90cm AP3+/AT5+ Ignore Cover FxF
DC6, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Invulnerable Save, Transport (16)

300pt in LatD.
300pt as transports in DG.
325pt in their own formation in DG.

I'd like to hear opinions on the 20cm speed, preferably from people who have played with/against them. In your feedback please say whether you're looking at Plague Towers as transports or in their own formation, and which army they're in, as they have pretty different roles in each, especially when used as transports.

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:36 pm 
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Anyone? Given the strong opinions expressed in other threads, I was hoping to see some discussion here... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:44 pm 
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Nothing more to add than that i don't see it a neither thematic or neccesary to have 20cm speed on the towers. Nurgle armies are supposed to be slow in general.

For me, i've never consider using the towers as transports. I rather use them as their own formations having either a blitzguard role or another defensive role.

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:49 pm 
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I've already said this once but I'll repeat myself here:

plague towers have historically been 15cm move, they are 15cm in the original LatD list which is approved in the tournament pack, they are also 15cm in both the EUK lists which can use them (latd and death guard)

the 20cm move IIRC was a suggestion I and some others made about a potential way of making them more useful as transports, it was adopted in the latest revision of the latd redux list but AFAIK is still being tested and is in no way established

given the pretty hefty amount of firepower a plague tower can chuck out at long range, 20cm move makes them that little bit nastier, the extra 10cm on a double makes them more able to get LOS around terrain, and it makes them much stronger in engagements, able to barge more effectively and in a position to soak up the first 6 hits on 4+ RA, basically what people hate about gorgons, but add in fearless and the ability to transport 16 stands of plague marines and daemons which are considerably nastier cargo than a few guardsmen, it's also in a SR4 army rather than 2 like latd so is that much more likely to get the drop on an opponent for a nasty engagement t2/3

I've faced them in a few latd redux games, at 15cm move they seemed okay, a bit slow at times, but still shooty and difficult to hurt, at 20cm move they shredded orks left right and centre, they got into range more easily and were very potent in engagements

I'd favour keeping them at 15cm, but giving them a points drop rather than boosting them in what is already a seemingly strong list....

both the DG and LATD redux list are currently experimental, the DG hadn't really had much testing at all, so I'd say the established stats are those in the stigmatus coven list

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:42 pm 
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IIRC I'm largely to blame for the 20cm move because I explicitly compared them to a gorgon and said they should be modeled around a similar concept. However what no one did was the other half of the equation which I stated which was dropping them down to 3DC. Personally I think the entire unit was absolutely mis-thought from the beginning in both purpose, capacity, speed, and weapons and should be rebooted in toto with an actual purpose (i mean, is it an assault transport? an Arty WE?) but as it stands, it's ludicrously OP at 20cm 6DC full of marines and the ability to use the DP.

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:16 pm 
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Played a LatD game at he end of last year testing a 20cm move to the Plague Tower. They were a lot more effective in the game and was probably the tipping point, getting angles to shoot and later turns not needing to double to get shots off.

I would prefer the unit to remain at speed 20cm.

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:44 pm 
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Thanks all.

Having read through the entirety of the LatD Redux thread before starting the Death Guard 0.3.x list, I hadn't seen any discussion of the Plague Tower in almost a year. As a result, I thought the 20cm move was a stable change and wasn't aware that it was still hotly contested. Hence this thread... :(


GORGONS

As far as the Gorgon comparison is concerned, I can understand but don't really agree - or think that it applies more to LatD than to Death Guard. What made Gorgons so stupidly good was their frankly insane cheapness, they were a sixth the cost of a Plague Tower for half the robustness and being able to soak up hits made/makes a massive difference when the cargo has no armour. Anything in a Death Guard Plague Tower will usually want to be in base contact, and will be nearly as tough as the Tower. It's a local running joke that whenever I use a DG Retinue in Rhinos, they try to form a shieldwall in front of the Rhinos. ;D

Then there's points costs - DKoK even with the roughly doubled points costs of the NetEA Gorgons is an army that can spam lots of cheap effective formations. The best equivalent you could manage with Death Guard is three stripped down DG Retinues and you can just about get the army up to nine activations by having the support formations be four-Pred companies or Plague Zombies. Spamming (non-scoring) Plague Zombies tends to mean losing activations really fast.

If you look at a DG Retinue with Chaos Spawn and Daemons you're starting at 700pt for the formation with a 1pt Daemon Pool.


MAKEOVER

Anyway, getting away from that, should we consider a bigger makeover? As Jimmy says, the current version is very unfocussed, neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat.

Looking for older inspiration, I no longer have a copy of the SM/TL-era Chaos box for the original rules, but the NetEpic Plague Tower seems to fit my memories fairly closely.

Notably, although it has a 75cm Rot Cannon with a ton of Barrage Points, the rest of the guns are 25cm and it gives a bonus when transported troops attacked big vehicles or buildings.

In terms of transport it could carry almost anything, but only had 11 slots, with a GUC taking up four.

Thinking aloud, here's a couple of more focussed ideas:

Assault Transport - we could keep the 20cm speed, tone down the guns and reduce the DC. For example make the Plague Mortar 60cm (maybe even 45cm) 3BP Disrupt IC and make the secondary guns 30-45cm. Maybe add a special rule like granting Ignore Cover to all units disembarking during an assault, or giving it Inspiring. Hmm, are there any War Engines with Infiltrate? That could be an interesting way to keep it at 15cm but make it useful as an assault transport, although a 30cm dash into combat would have it's own issues with suspension of disbelief.

Blitz Guard/Artillery - drop it back to 15cm or maybe even 10cm and up-gun it a bit. Possibly bump the Plague Mortar up to 75cm. We could also look at a 45cm Plague Mortar with Indirect Fire which would work much better with the Contagions, but big WE with Indirect Fire can be a pain to balance, as seen with the Ordinatus Medrengard.


EDIT - obviously an additional factor is that the Plague Tower is going to have different roles in the two lists. In Death Guard I've found it much more useful for assaults in it's own formation than as a transport, especially given the amount of good FF supporting fire in the rest of the list. Being able to wade in to almost any enemy formation and know that your attacking formation is likely to survive so your Blight Drones, Havocs etc. can support is powerful.

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:36 pm 
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A few possibilities for discussion:


Assault variant 1
WE 20cm Armour 4+ CC4+ FF4+
Plague Mortar 45cm 3+D3 BP, Disrupt FxF
2 x Vomit Cannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+, Ignore Cover
Rot Cannon 45cm AP3+/AT4+ Ignore Cover FxF
DC3, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Invulnerable Save, Transport (16)

Notes - a relatively 'plain' version, it loses half the DC, drops 15cm off the Plague Mortar, halves the range of the Rot Mortar but bumps up it's AT to make it a slightly longer range Demolisher and replaces the Battlecannon with the Contagion's Vomit Cannons. Transport capacity is unchanged due to the large formations in LatD.


Assault variant 2 'reaper edition'
WE 20cm Armour 4+ CC4+ FF4+
Pus Cannon 30cm 3BP, Disrupt, Ignore Cover FxF
2 x Vomit Cannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+, Ignore Cover
Rot Cannon 45cm AP3+/AT4+ Ignore Cover FxF
DC3, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Invulnerable Save, Transport (12)
Assault Ramps - any unit disembarking from the Plague Tower as part of an Engage activation gains Ignore Cover on it's attacks during this activation.

Notes - this is fairly close to being a Plaguereaper with 20cm move and a transport capacity. Transport reduced to 12 so that it can only hold a 'bare' Coven. A possible extra assault rules added.


Assault variant 3 (double-barrage)
WE 20cm Armour 4+ CC4+ FF4+
Plague Mortar 45cm 2BP Disrupt FxF
Pus Cannon 30cm 3BP, Disrupt, Ignore Cover FxF
2 x Vomit Cannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+, Ignore Cover
DC3, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Invulnerable Save, Transport (12)
Assault Ramps - any unit disembarking from the Plague Tower as part of an Engage activation gains Ignore Cover on it's attacks during this activation.

Notes - this has two barrage weapons like the SM2-era version, but will lose Ignore Cover when combining them for 5BP/two templates within 30cm.


Assault variant 4 (15cm Infiltrator)
WE 15cm Armour 4+ CC4+ FF4+
Pus Cannon 30cm 3BP, Disrupt, Ignore Cover FxF
2 x Vomit Cannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+, Ignore Cover
DC3, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Invulnerable Save, Infiltrator, Transport (12)
Assault Ramps - any unit disembarking from the Plague Tower as part of an Engage activation gains Ignore Cover on it's attacks during this activation.

Notes - this drops back down to 15cm but gains Infiltrator to make a double move during an Engage activation. It also drops a complete weapon system and has no guns over 30cm. I've not checked how War Engine barges would interact with Infiltrator.


Artillery variant 1 (direct fire)
WE 15cm Armour 4+ CC5+ FF4+
Plague Mortar 75cm 3+D3 BP Disrupt FxF
2 x Battlecanon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Rot Cannon 90cm AP3+/AT5+ Ignore Cover FxF
DC4, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Invulnerable Save, Transport (6)

Notes - DC reduced to 4 (rather than the 3 of the Assault variants), CC dropped to 5+ and the Plague Mortar bumped up to 75 to match the Battlecannons. It still has a transport capacity if you really want to use it but you'd need to take two to fit in a whole formation and you've probably be looking at 8-900+ points for the formation.


Artillery variant 2 (indirect fire)
WE 15cm Armour 4+ CC5+ FF4+
Plague Mortar 45cm 3BP Disrupt, Indirect Fire FxF
2 x Vomit Cannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+, Ignore Cover
Rot Cannon 90cm 1 BP Disrupt FxF
DC4, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Invulnerable Save

Notes - a more purely artillery/blitz guard variant , this drops range and BP from the Plague Mortar but gives it Indirect. The Rot Cannon is changed to a 1BP Disrupt direct fire weapon so that it can add to the Plague Mortar BPs if there is LoF. It also drops the Battlecannon for Vomit Cannon to make it more clearly a bigger brother of the Contagions.


Assuming this kind of level of change happens, what do people think about having two variants available at once? So an assault variant could be added to a Coven or DG Retinue, and an Artillery variant could be taken in it's own formation or added to Contagions?

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:43 pm 
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Before we go reinventing the wheel here, wouldnt it be more prudent to continue testing them as-is for the time being with a focus on the effect of the extra 5cm move? I've had a few bad experiences but would be willing to take them on again in a few more games at both speeds to see how they are affected and get a feel for it, I'd prefer that approach to trying to balance and cost up what is effectively an entirely new unit

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:05 pm 
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That's some ideas for if a reinvention is the route to take while both lists are still in experimental status. That would have to be MikeT's call anyway.

I'm very happy to carry on testing them at 15cm and 20cm, I thought you were pretty opposed to 20cm but may have been misreading your tone in the batrep thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:35 pm 
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ive played against 20cm LATM redux playtext – can make for some tough list builds to play against but seem good

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:56 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
That's some ideas for if a reinvention is the route to take while both lists are still in experimental status. That would have to be MikeT's call anyway.

I'm very happy to carry on testing them at 15cm and 20cm, I thought you were pretty opposed to 20cm but may have been misreading your tone in the batrep thread.


I'm not opposed to 20cm if enough people are happy with it, I think a few more playtest games are needed, but they certainly feel frustratingly powerful at that speed, I was mostly pointing out that the speed value has been inherited from the experimental and under test LATD redux list, so is definitely not established

15cm is more fluffy and reflects the slow, plodding nature of the Death Guard well, 20cm is faster than most comparable tracked/wheeled super heavy vehicles, while it makes the thing more useful, it's plenty good at being a resilient transport and firebase as it is, the extra movement makes a decent unit into a very good one and I don't think it's needed at this stage

After the Bath tournament, I'm likely to have the opportunity to play many games against the LATD version of the tower against MikeT which may change my mind again....

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:37 pm 
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Aye. Likewise, I need to try out some games using them with 15cm move.

Part of the problem is that I hardly ever considered Plague Towers in the EpicUK list because they couldn't be taken in their own formation and as 325pt transports in that list they're mostly a points sink - 15cm speed with no March actions makes them painfully slow as you're looking at three moves across a minimum of two activations just to reach the centre line. Add in the EpicUK crit effect being d3 random units getting killed and they're not just points sinks but deadly points sinks. :wah

The NetEA version helps two-fold, with the killed units on a crit being chosen, and by having Chaos Spawn upgrades that you can then throw to the crit effect.

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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:01 pm 
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A little late to the party but...

I like it to stay at 15 cm.
My reasons:
1. The original model is basically a wooden tower with wooden wheels that seems to be pushed or something... More like 10 cm instead of 20 :)
2. Nurgle is not known for their fast warengines. They are slow and tough
3. Power creep. If the Tower is moving 20, why is the Leviathan only moving 15 cm (I play Cadians :)) or why is the Baneblade 15 cm... (I do not like the gorgon ether but now it has almost no firepower so I can live with it)

I would rather see some other solution if the tower is to bad. When taken as transports they add firepower and RA in engagements. It also has 6 DC that is very good in my opinion. Yes it is slow but it still has its uses.


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 Post subject: Re: Plague Tower Speed
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:20 pm 
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Speaking of Cadians...the Stormlord is useful exactly because it's able to allow a certain amount embarked troops to FF from it and it's only 15cm move. Perhaps that's something to make the capacity useful here as well instead of uber speed.

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