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BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK

 Post subject: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:07 pm 
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SPECIAL RULES
1)Factions rule deleted

2)
Undivided formations now can summon daemons from any faction in any combination, however lesser daemons (apart from Daemonic beasts) cost 2 summoning points rather than 1. Any GD can also be summoned (cost as normal)

3) SUMMONING The basic summoning mechanic remains the same
- Daemonic Pact - For each Daemonic Pact purchased add 1 lesser daemon to the daemon pool. Extra lesser Daemons can be purchased as normal.
- Champion The Champion augments summoning as before, in addition instead of augmenting the summoning of lesser daemons the Champion may be Sacrificed. If the unit is Sacrificed it uses its full possible 6 summoning points (in combination with a Daemonic Pact) to summon a Greater Daemon, the Greater Daemon is placed within 10cm of the Champion and the Champion unit is then permanently removed

LIST STRUCTURE
4) Armoured Co moves to Core section. Wording on BL elite section remains the same ie only Retinues unlock elite choices. Wording on Support section changes to 'You may have two Black Legion Support formations per Retinue [color=#FF0000]or Armoured Company[/color] taken

5) Decimator moves to WE section

6) Havoc formation added to Support section - 1 Chaos Lord Character Upgrade, 4 Havoc CSM and 2 Chaos Rhinos for 225pts. Upgrades Chaos Dreadnoughts, Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer, Chaos Champion, Daemon Prince, May replace Chaos Rhinos with Chaos Land Raiders for 125pts

POINTS
7) Warlord increased to 50pts

8)Terminator upgrade dropped to 60pts

9) Obliterators dropped to 75pts

10) Banelord drops to 800pts

11) Icon bearer drops to 25pts

12) Lesser Daemons drop to 15pts

13) Helltalons drop to 225pts

14) Greater Daemons drop to 50pts

15) Harbinger increases to 400pts

UNIT STATS
16) Greater Daemon - add Daemonic Focus to Notes

17) Helltalons - twin Lascannon drops to 30cm, Bombs gain Ignore Cover

18) Harbinger stats change to
Harbinger AC/WE Bomber 5+ n/a n/a DC4, Reinforced Armour, Invulnerable. Critical Hit Effect: Destroyed.
Reaper Autocannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+/AA5+, FxF
Reaper Autocannon 15cm AP4+/AT6+/AA5+, Left Arc
Reaper Autocannon 15cm AP4+/AT6+/AA5+, Right Arc
Firebombs 15cm 6BP, Ignores Cover, FxF

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:26 pm 
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Is this aproposal or already set in stone?

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:30 pm 
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Not set in stone until the armybook is finished but they have been up for discussion/testing/feedback for a year

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:34 pm 
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Nice to see those change sin one spot. I will implement them in the Red Corsairs list.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:28 am 
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I'll adjust the Iron Warriors list as well (changes to the Harbinger are it at first glance).

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:00 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
Not set in stone until the armybook is finished but they have been up for discussion/testing/feedback for a year


Do you mean that they will be in the 2014 compendium and tournament pack? Are they to be considered netEA approved?


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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:05 pm 
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Yes

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:33 pm 
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i like these changes. I still think bigger daemon changes should be had, but this is definitely a good start.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Excellent! I approve of all the change, good job Steve.

It's a shame these didn't made it in to the recently released 2013 tournament pack. Till the 2014 one is done could you put together a revised Black Legion pdf including these changes and sticky it at the top of the chaos sub-forum?


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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:30 pm 
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Quote:
17) Helltalons - twin Lascannon drops to 30cm, Bombs gain Ignore Cover

Steve, could we also reduce the twin Las-cannon to AA5+ to bring it back in line with all other Fighter Bomber stats.

(as mentioned in various threads ;) )


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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:53 pm 
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I can only repeat that the Decimator change is deeply regretted.

All the other changes are very much for the better, thank you.

We did try extending those changes to 25 points champions and 75 points Greater Daemons, and found that this made Greater Daemons a lot more tactically interesting, as it was possible to buy several champions per Greater Daemon, and have them being summoned at different places of the battlefield during the course of the game. Just a note.

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Last edited by LordotMilk on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:33 pm 
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please provide something other than conjecture for this.... so far you've only been negative about the change from some kind of theoretical viewpoint, I'm sure people would lend more credence to your views if you provide batreps or some kind of evidence to back these statements up.... as it is it just feels like complaining because you don't get to play with all the toys you like.... I know BL are meant to be super war engine heavy, but the list requires balance

you can still include them in an army, you can include 4 if you like..... but removing the synergy with the other war engines is key to list balance, since facing them in many many games I've been of the opinion that decimators are very very bent as it is..... fearless, 1+ initiative, a very nasty main weapon and very potent secondary weapons as well as CC4+ (because they're spiky) for 25 points more than the closest imperial superheavy equivalent (stormsword) they're a great deal, and damn straight you shouldn't be able to spam them alongside deathwheels and ferals....

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:38 am 
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For some reason, my post printed some of Steve's words instead of mine.

I will edit the post with the post I was actually trying to type.

@Kyuss: I agree 100% that Decimators are over the top. My proposal was to tone them down instead of burying them into the allies section.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:00 am 
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LordotMilk wrote:

@Kyuss: I agree 100% that Decimators are over the top. My proposal was to tone them down instead of burying them into the allies section.


They're hardly buried in the allies section; no one would describe for instance Warhound's being buried in the space marine allies section yet this is the same situation.

The fact of the matter is that, now they're in the allies section, they're not competing with terminator and chosen formations; formations which should be more core in a chaos SPACE MARINE list than some rare SHT. There's no justification for them being treated any differently than other war engines like Death Wheels.

You're still to provide some rational reason for your feeling by the way beyond a vague and undefined personal dislike.


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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:33 am 
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I understand from your post that you believe the allies section is actually the war engines section, and thus thats where war engines belong.

That is not my understanding. The allies section is in my opinion precisely that: the allies section.

Very many lists have war engines in their core. BL has had War engines in core for over a decade. When something is considered unbalanced in other lists, we change the unit stats or point costing, we dont just remove the item from its core. I find this poor list designing.

If for example, the decimator had been given the following stats:

Super Heavy Undivided Daemon Engine: Decimator, 225 pts. each
Initiative 2+, DC 3 WE, Fearless, Reinforced armour, Crit: destroyed
15 cm/4+/5+/4+
2 Reaper autocanons left
2 Reaper autocanons right
Cannon 45 cm 3BP MA

Having tested those stats as an elite choice with BL, we have found that it remained a good choice, but is really a lot more balanced, and therefore the incentive to make a full WE list, though still possible and coherent with what the list had been designed for and been played with, was often a suboptimal choice. Indeed, choosing Decimators instead of defilers as Blitzguard ends up as a poor choice against defensive armies, and choosing Decimators in quantity orients his list towards a static and defensive play, which can be good, but does not synergize well with other list options like terminators or dreadclaw assaults.

A similar approach could have been taken with the Death Wheel.

Instead, though the list is definitely still playable and is refocusing on daemon summoning, which is a good thing, it loses a playable strategy focus (heavy war engine), for no added value.

Now, you might argue that War engine heavy lists are a problem in and of themselves. However, other War engine heavy lists have been designed and continue to be designed, to everyone's approval.

I have mentioned all these arguments in the past, and I find them quite rational. I see that the decision has been made to change this list, and that the ERC has either approved of them or has not been submitted the issue. I suppose that's fine for many, or even the majority, thus my expression of regret.

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