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Death Guard v0.3

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:53 am 
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Hmm, or a Zombie Master character that adds Plague Zombies to the formation. Which would be fantastically fluffy for Typhus, but would probably make the formation easier to break as the Zombies are so fragile compared to the Terminators...

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:28 am 
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I agree that we should be looking into how to make the terminators a more viable unit, but I think we need to try and limit the number of unique rules or upgrades. I know that just as a general rule of thumb, the EC tries to limit rules like that. I think your concern about this "breaking" demon summoning is well placed. Additionally, essentially making the formation require the upgrade and bumping it up to 500 keeps the same pro in place of them being very expensive.

Not that this idea, or other like it, should be written off. Just that we should try and exhaust manipulating existing rules/points as you mentioned. We may also find that these do just balance out as expensive terminators and they need to summon demons the traditional way to beef up. Their stat line is pretty intimidating!

Thanks for all your work on this. I'm sure it's tough to find the exact balance between playability and fluff.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:43 am 
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Now you are on to something! I really like that idea of having the terminators teleporting in with deamons attached. It would be very fluffy for them to be swarms (like you said because of Typhus) (also excited because I actually have Typhus as my terminator lord). Terminators with swarms attached would be not bad but maybe ditch the part where they don't count to size of the formation.

Make the terminators:
425pts with icon and focus included and deploy with D3+1 swarms.

Swarms will die easy as the are suppose to but it gives them more size and they can then summon more deamons later.

The other idea so you don't break the summoning rules would be to make the swarms not summonable deamons and just regular units attached to the formation.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:22 pm 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
I agree that we should be looking into how to make the terminators a more viable unit, but I think we need to try and limit the number of unique rules or upgrades. I know that just as a general rule of thumb, the EC tries to limit rules like that. I think your concern about this "breaking" demon summoning is well placed. Additionally, essentially making the formation require the upgrade and bumping it up to 500 keeps the same pro in place of them being very expensive.

Aye. And for a 'normal' list (i.e. not something exotic like Necrons) it already has:
Implacable Advance,
Plague Zombies arriving via planetary bombardment,
Invulnerable Saves on almost all AV,
Fearless on the majority of units,
Nurgle's Rot as a formation rule on three units (Pestilent Slime Trail on the Beasts is getting dropped),
'Grot-plus' rule on the Nurgling Swarms.

All in addition to the standard Black Legion rules for Daemons.

The points cost I'm not too concerned about as there's plenty of scope to upgun the basic statline to justify it, as long as the formation itself isn't so binary when it comes to breaking.


gunslinger007 wrote:
Not that this idea, or other like it, should be written off. Just that we should try and exhaust manipulating existing rules/points as you mentioned. We may also find that these do just balance out as expensive terminators and they need to summon demons the traditional way to beef up. Their stat line is pretty intimidating!

Thanks for all your work on this. I'm sure it's tough to find the exact balance between playability and fluff.

Thanks! However I'm finding that there's limited design space left, given the constraints of Fearless. :(



atension wrote:
Now you are on to something! I really like that idea of having the terminators teleporting in with deamons attached. It would be very fluffy for them to be swarms (like you said because of Typhus) (also excited because I actually have Typhus as my terminator lord). Terminators with swarms attached would be not bad but maybe ditch the part where they don't count to size of the formation.

Make the terminators:
425pts with icon and focus included and deploy with D3+1 swarms.

An Icon Bearer is already 25pt and an upgrade slot, so 425pt would be on the cheap end.

atension wrote:
Swarms will die easy as the are suppose to but it gives them more size and they can then summon more deamons later.

The other idea so you don't break the summoning rules would be to make the swarms not summonable deamons and just regular units attached to the formation.


Hmm, thinking about this more gives me another idea that's arguably easier to explain and less of an exception:
After teleporting, an unbroken Death Guard Terminator formation may summon daemons as if they were about to activate, but limited to Nurgling Swarms. This takes the place of their usual pre-activation summoning for the turn. The formation must have Daemonic Pact.

It's much closer to the normal rules in that it's 'just' moving the timing of the summon. On the other hand it may well turn out to be too powerful and/or simply not fun to play against - a fully tooled up formation with Chaos Champion and a big enough Daemon Pool could potentially arrive with twelve Nurgling Swarms surrounding them. :-\ Albeit at a cost of 700-odd points...

I think it would also require backing off on the quantity of Firefight Extra Attacks available to the formation as they'll happily throw a pile of Nurglings into base contact and know that they're likely to win the combat purely off massed Firefight dice.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:15 pm 
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Hi,

that rises a question because I always played the teleport like this.

Start of turn place teleport units
right before choosing to activate the terminators summon daemons
then activate terminators.

Is that not the way to do it?

Why is there then a need to teleport with daemons?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:42 pm 
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Yes, that's the correct way to play it. This is a suggestion for a special rule as an exception.

Unlike your Thousand Sons development work, I've not been looking at six-strong formations of Fearless Terminators which means they're pretty easy to break for their points cost, especially in a list where the only other teleporters are Plague Zombies and there are no Dreadclaws, so the Terminators are often more isolated than in 1k Sons.

The idea of being able to arrive with some daemons is exactly what's been stated - making an expensive and relatively brittle formation harder to break before they get to activate.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:38 pm 
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Could you add nurglings in as an upgrade, and say that they aren't summoned but deployed normally with the terminators?
They would have to gain teleport too I suppose, which could be justified easily enough.

You could even make all Nurgling units like that, not just the terminator ones...

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:12 pm 
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Yep agree with Matty, then there will be no special rules needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:17 pm 
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Playing devils advocate here : isn't this just trying to nullify the usual gamble inherent in deploying teleporters in any list? Every marine player would love a way to mitigate against loosing their strategy roll and getting their elite terminators stomped, but thats the way it goes - the trick is timing, location and prepping so even if you loose the roll your opponent has limited ways to mitigate the attack - "forking" two enemy targets for example. Even so, most UK marine players instead take terminators in thunderhawks as teleporting is still seen as too risky.

Sure the DG terminators are expensive, but DG don't have to take them (arguably marines do). Dropping some of the toughest elite troops in the game anywhere on the board with the option to summon daemons to mitigate their main disadvantage (numbers) with strat 4 should arguably be a high risk/high reward option in the list ? Or an option which you only take at 4k+ games where you can afford to boost their numbers ?

Now playing the nice guy : arguably fluff wise it fits DG to have plenty of rock hard terminators - perhaps having the option to add/swap them into retinues as bodyguards to boost toughness (as space wolves) might be an option? At least ground pounding you wouldn't have to price in the teleporting...


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:49 pm 
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Hmm, Nurglings as a normal unit that's added on like Chaos Spawn definitely has some potential. I can't find it at the moment, but I'm pretty sure there's some background material that describes Nurglings as being more at home in the material world than other daemons, hence the Death Guard vehicles mostly being 'manned' by Nurglings.

Blip - loyalist Terminators (or similarly-costed sx-strong Chaos Terminators) don't break from two attacks and a single casualty, or a single attack that causes two casualties. The size of the game doesn't matter, because there's no option (and not likely to be) to add more Terminators. I'm not dismissing your concerns, though, similar concerns are why I'm bringing this up as something that needs discussion before it even goes in as an experimental option.

Thinking more about Nurglings as a normal unit:
- I'd see them keeping the Expendable and not counting for assault casualties rule, but losing Scout due to some nasty interactions with Teleport and Scout, or letting a Teleporting formation spread out large distances. They would need to count towards the size of the formation again, partly due to multiple background references to them overwhelming the enemy through sheer mass of Nurglings, and because it removes another 'exception'. Plus you could end up with a higher chance of DG Terminators breaking on teleport due to extra chances to roll 1s but still only counting as four units...
- Armoured Companies, Armoured Assault Companies and Plaguereapers would lose the planned Daemonic Pact (Nurglings-only) and instead have the 'Nurgling Infestation' upgrade available. Given the 15cm speed of Nurglings, they'd probably only get taken with Plaguereapers, and possibly Armoured Assault Companies. It reduces the assault potential for Armoured Assault Companies with Plague Hulks, as summoning daemons gives the Hulks and extra 5cm plus base width of threat range with Infiltrate.
- The upgrade would presumably add 1+1d3 Nurgling Swarm units to the formation, cost 25-50pt??

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:04 pm 
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Yeah, like i say, playing devil's advocate.

At the end of the day, you still have to kill a terminator stand - usually in cover and usually carefully placed to avoid getting shot!


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:10 am 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
Given the 15cm speed of Nurglings, they'd probably only get taken with Plaguereapers, and possibly Armoured Assault Companies. It reduces the assault potential for Armoured Assault Companies with Plague Hulks, as summoning daemons gives the Hulks and extra 5cm plus base width of threat range with Infiltrate.

During a discussion at the club tonight, Paul T came up with the perfect solution - Vindicators and Predators gain Transport (1 Nurgling Swarm), Rhinos and Land Raiders get to transport a Nurgling Swarm in addition to their standard transport slots and Plaguereapers get Transport (3 Nurgling Swarms).

Extremely fluffy given that Death Guard vehicles are infested with Nurglings and it all uses standard EA rules.

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:57 am 
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Sounds really interesting. I'm really pleased youre making deamons more of a focus.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:40 am 
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Hmmm this does sound fun. I'm guessing a point increase would be necessary. What are we thinking? Roughly 25 pts per "slot"?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:58 pm 
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For the transport slots? Nothing, the Nurgling Swarm bases would be paid for via the formation upgrade to get 1+1d3.

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