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Death Guard v0.3

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:38 am 
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I'm all for the simplification of nurgles rot.

Disrupt in close combat and firefights for the terminators fits the theme well. The army is getting very disrupty, but warp spawned plagues and diseases probably do that.

Some ideas that popped into my head as I read the last few posts:
- Champion upgrade for armoured and armoured assault companies. Allows the GUO that is possessing a predator to say "Right! That's it!" And come bursting out into an engagement.
- Plague zombies have nurgles rot. Casualties caused by it spawn another zombie unit that joins the zombies.


Feel free to ignore them as you see fit!

I'll try and get a game in with the new list this week and give some new units a run. The last time I took nurglings they died horrifically to a squat colossus but did their job. But they did burn through my daemon pool, which I'm not really used to.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:21 am 
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I like both of those ideas. Very fluffy.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:59 am 
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As far as the background goes, I'm pretty sure GUOs don't possess anything smaller than a Plague Tower, but everyone assumes they do because of David Soper's old Slayer Sword winner. :-) http://volomir.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/p ... soper.html

Although picturing something smaller like a Beast of Nurgle is a little worrying.

'Go and shoot that loyalist Land Raider!'
'Bark bark bark bark bark bark bark!'
*Sigh*

'No, go over there and shoot it!'
'Bark bark bark bark bark bark bark!'
*Sigh*

*Bounce bounce bounce bounce.*
Distantly: 'Bark bark bark bark bark bark bark!'
*Sigh*

*Lick lick lick lick lick.*
*Sigh*

*Sound of Land Raider collapsing in a pile of slimy rust.*
'Oh. Oh, OK, that works.'


For Plague Zombies I kind of like the idea, but they're a very well established unit that's had years of testing - and at the moment there's enough other stuff that's new and needs batreps!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:21 am 
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Yep, thats the predator i was thinking of (though ive seen many more since) its a lot more 90s florescent than i remembered ! :-)

Yes, messing with the zombies is perhaps a bad move at this stage. Though it would be fun :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:22 pm 
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Agreed about the plague zombies. Adding Nurgle's rot (as an aside, I think the simplified version is great) would push their cost up undoing their roll as a relatively inexpensive formation.

Armoured formations - can't say I see an immediate need for them to have a Champion, but I'm not opposed to it going out for testing.

Terminators - I really enjoy the idea of having access to different styles of terminators, but I think for long term list development one "hybrid" stat line is probably the best option. The hypothetical Plague Terminator stat line IJW proposed is what I'll probably try and test out.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:21 am 
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I got a good game in this evening using 0.3.3 against NetEA White Scars, with a full batrep to come later this week.

Highlights included:

  • Four Chosen holding off a full formation of WS Bikes for three turns (including breaking and rallying) and keeping them away from my Blitz even while broken.
  • Death Guard Terminators (2 Deathshroud and 2 Grave Wardens) arriving in turn two next to some Marine Predators and supporting firing them to death when the Spacecraft Zombies assaulted them.
    The Spacecraft causing utter disruption in turn one due to my opponent double and triple guessing where the barrage was going to land and trying to get formations away.
  • The remnants of an Armoured Assault Company (having lost two Vindicators and a Plague Hulk) ending the game on the enemy Blitz and another objective to give me a 2-1 win on turn three.


Anyway, post-game discussions were mostly about the future plans for the Terminators. It was rightly pointed out that the 'Plague Terminators' plan simply had too much Disrupt, to the extent that they would never need to Engage. Pick two formations within 30cm - Sustain into whichever one has more infantry with eight IC Disrupt shots hitting on 3+, probably inflicting 7BMs which is enough to cripple most formations even if every saving throw was made. Then retain and Engage the other formation with someone else and get eight supporting fire shots on 4+ (and a MW4+ from the Sorcerer Lord character), half of those being ones that cause BMs after combat res.

Richard (not on taccoms) came up with a neater and less powerful option for Nurgle's Rot - rather than basing it on hits etc, have a flat 'if you were in an assault against someone with Nurgle's Rot, your formation suffers a BM after Combat Res'. No need to track types of hit, just a slight extra edge for the Nurgle player.

Written up in more formal language, it looks something like this:

Nurgle's Rot
When working out the result of an assault, check to see if formations in the assault are affected by Nurgle's Rot. They are affected if they were directly involved with any enemy unit with Nurgle's Rot, including via Supporting Fire. If an affected formation loses the combat, they suffer one additional 'extra hit'. If they won, they receive one additional Blast Marker Before consolidation moves. Followers of Nurgle are not affected by this ability.


This now looks like a good rule to try on DG Beasts of Nurgle, DG Terminators and maybe DG Daemon Princes, although the Prince might need to lose something in return. It would be excellent for Great Unclean Ones, but they're consistent across too many other lists to do a variant version.


A similar simplification would be for the slime trail of the Beasts of Nurgle, basically making a 'Teleport test' for any INF in base contact with a Beast.

Again, more formally:

Pestilential Slime Trail
After Counter Charge moves have been made, roll a D6 for each INF or LV unit in base contact with any Beasts of Nurgle. On the roll of a 1 the formation the unit is in receives a Blast Marker. Followers of Nurgle are not affected by this ability. Skimmers that choose to use their Firefight value in an assault are not affected by this ability.



I foresee Beasts of Nurgle with those two rules being Speed 10cm, Sv3+ CC5+ FF- in order to keep them at one summoning point, or a beefier Speed 10cm Sv4+ reinforced CC5+ FF6+ and two summoning points. Given that Nurgle's Rot means that it will be pretty much automatic to include a Beast of Nurgle for any assault, I'm inclined to go for the tougher two summoning point version as there's then a decent trade off for taking one.

Does anyone know of existing Lesser Daemons that cost two points to summon?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:46 pm 
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Simplified Nurgle's Rot looks good. Slime trails also.

Not sure on the beasts stats, but i personally don't see they should have a FF attack. That would limit them somewhat however if move 10cm (which might be fine.)

By the way, were the chosen just lucky or is a fearless scout screen as potent as i feared?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:42 pm 
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While that slime trail rule is fluffy, it seems the wrong level of detail for EA?
making a special rule for just 1 unit, (when demonic beasts work fine anyway) is more of a netepic level of detail, not EA abstraction?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 pm 
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Fair enough.

EDIT - although I obviously disagree about Daemonic Beasts covering Beasts of Nurgle working fine, which seems to go for all the Daemonic Beasts in the cult lists. Apart from anything else they're just too darn fast with speed 20cm and Infiltrate, even though that would arguably be more useful when you can have Plague Hulks and Defilers in a formation...

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:56 pm 
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*bark bark bark bark*


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:49 am 
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:)


BATREP!

http://wargamingtrader.com/epic-batrep- ... hite-scars

The overall result was 2-1 to my Death Guard (Blitz and two objectives compared to two objectives) but it could have gone either way.

The post was semi-autmatically generated from notes I took during the game, so please let me know about any errors!

I was aiming to try out lots of new stuff, and a slightly different type of list than normal, very light on War Engines. Originally the Plaguereaper wasn't in the list and there was a Plague Zombie formation but when we started setting up I didn't have enough models for a Zombie formation, a second Zombie formation from the Spacecraft barrage and potentially a bunch of Nurglings (which are normally used in the Zombie formation).

Other notable stuff about the game:
  • Paul was very worried about the Spacecraft barrage arriving in turn one and spent several retains moving stuff out of his Deployment Zone - in one case into the actual barrge area!
  • In the late game I got sidetracked trying to deal with his Terminator BTS, and only focused on the objectives at the last moment, I should have simply ignored them once they'd activated.
  • A crucial activation in the end game was the Contagions blowing apart the Assault formation that was heading for my Blitz. Although the 2BP didn't do anything, the 30cm secondary guns of the Contagions plus the guns on the Desecrator did the job - making the Desecrator a very useful upgrade to the Contagions even with no aircraft in the game.
  • The Plaguereaper failed to rally just at the wrong moment at the end of turn two, otherwise it could have Sustained into the WS Terminators in turn three with all weapons being in range, or forced Paul to do something about it first.
  • The WS Whirlwinds did a great job of target priority, breaking or helping to break three formations in three turns.
  • Sniper on all the Scouts didn't kick in as they generally had too many BMs to fire enough shots to get hits. This was intentional on my part...


Unit-specific comments:
  • The Chosen did disproportionately well on my right flank, but mainly due to some absurd dice rolling for the Blight Drones, and then in assaults with the WS Bikes. Notably three broken Chosen getting engaged by the nearly full Bike formation and not taking any casualties, putting them on one down and getting a draw on combat res, before I remembered that the Assault formation hadn't supported. They killed one, shifting the result two in favour of the Bikes due to outnumbering > 2:1...
    Note that the Chosen were represented by some Nurglified Chaos Bikers to represent mounted infantry tactics using Bikes to get up the field then fighting on foot.
  • The few assaults that involved Daemons would have been largely similar without the Daemons, although the Nurglings in the DG Terminator vs Typhoon assault soaked up three hits (one save and two dead) but the Terminators would probably have saved anyway. I'll need to set up a bunch of mini scenarios for deamon-supported assaults and then use the same rolls but with different Daemons in use.
  • The DG Terminators with seven Firefight Dice did horrible things to the end of Paul's line, and would have probably wiped the Scouts if the Scouts hadn't broken to firing.
  • Losing the Plague Hulk and then only summoning two Daemons on my BTS stalled a potential nasty assault on the Terminator BTS - the plan had been to summon Daemons and then use them to 'catapult' the Plague Hulk and winged Daemon Prince into base contact to get four MW hits on 3+ plus lots of supporting fire. But it wasn't to be...
  • Only one War Engine in the list, and that's because I didn't have enough models for all the Zombies plus Nurglings!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:55 am 
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By the way, this was the original planned list, But I didn't have the potential 37 Zombie + Nurgling models, given that the Nurglings I've got painted up are usually representing Zombies...

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:32 pm 
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Nice report - very easy to follow.

WS looked a bit strung out. Might of come off if the bikes and assault marines could have smashed your right wing quickly and enveloped the center, but sounds like they brought their rubber chainswords to the fight. Terminators needed to get stuck in to that BTS in an assault too.

Great looking White Scars army !


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:28 pm 
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Yeah, that was largely the result of worries about the Spaceship barrage (Paul's faced it while using Speed Freaks) plus garrisoned Contagions barrage.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:20 am 
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Some more thoughts on Terminators.

The obvious problem with small non-War Engine formations is that they can be very easy to break due to the formation size decreasing as they take casualties. Loyalist Marines get around this with ATSKNF, most other Chaos lists get around this by having 'cheap' Terminators and/or the ability to bump the formation size up beyond four units. Fearless means that 'cheap' isn't really an option, and also causes problems with larger formation sizes, Steve already dismissed the idea of a six-strong formation of Fearless Terminators and I'm inclined to agree.

An idea that comes from Richard in my club is to look at another way of increasing the formation size - let them teleport in with some Nurgling Swarms attached.

My concern is that this may 'break' some of the normal rules for how Lesser Daemons work in EA, but after some more thought I think it can be made to work.

Rather than a formation rule, I'm inclined to go for an upgrade character. Something like:

Herald of Nurgle. Character, Leader, Invulnerable Save. When the formation deploys it can include 1d3 Nurgling Swarms from the Daemon Pool. If teleporting, do not roll for Blast Markers for the Nurgling Swarms.

50pt, available to Nurgle Terminators and (maybe) Death Guard Retinues.


There's lots in there that could be tweaked as needed to get the balance right (Nurgling quantity, points cost, adding/taking away abilities etc.) but it looks like something that's worth trying. This gives them that extra bit of resilience against teleporting in, losing the Strategy roll and getting relatively easily broken before they can activate.

It does mean that a formation with Herald, Daemonic Pact and Icon Bearer would be a whopping 500pt...

EDIT - no rolling for BMs for the Nurgling Swarms because they don't increase the formation size, and this would actually increase the chances of breaking the Terminators...


In other news, there was a local megabattle yesterday with 5k or Death Guard and 5k of Black Legion against 5k of Dark Angels and 5k of Imperial Guard. We tried out the simplified formation-level Nurgle's Rot rule and it worked well - easy to keep track of, not game-changing in that it didn't affect who won or lost the combat, but it did give the combats that extra little bit of oomph by adding either an additional BM or hackdown hit as appropriate. We used it as a rule on Beasts of Nurgle, Nurgle Daemon Princes and Nurgle Terminators.

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