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Death Guard v0.3

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:15 pm 
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If I wanted to try and break the list, I'd try something like:

Retinue w SC + Tower
Retinue + Tower
Blight Drones Swarm
Tower
Tower
Tower
Tower

With the current point cost, that'd leave me with 200 that I'd probably add Hellblades in for. With the 25 point increases, that's only leave me with 50 pts to add upgrades, maybe Daemonic Pact to each Retinue. It is definitely a list with a lot of ranged firepower, but no AA, very low activations, and immobile even for DG. It almost looks like it would play more like a Titan Legions list.

With the point increase and the speed reduction to 15 cm, I think it helps mitigate Tower spamming from being competitive. But, I'll need to take it out for a spin to see how this does. Theory is good, bat reps are better!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:40 pm 
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Yeah, much the same here.

Making Towers take up a Support slot would reduce it to four in that list instead of six, and Elite would reduce it even further to two.

Support slot Towers still allows six Towers in a list:
Retinue + Tower
Retinue + Tower
Retinue + Tower
Tower
Tower
Tower

But then you're on 2925pt for six (very tough) formations, without a Supreme Commander. However a slight tweak would give you:
Retinue with SC, 4 Rhinos, 1 Vindicator
Retinue + Tower + 1 Chaos Spawn (for the last 25pt points and to have a single BTS)
Retinue + Tower
Tower
Tower
Tower
Blight Drones

Which is 3k on the dot, still has five Towers and is arguably more scary than my first list. If aiming for eight activations (what my 3k Death Guard lists typically reach) you could tweak the second one slightly to have two Garrisoning Retinues, one Tower Retinue, Blight Drones and four singleton Towers.

As Elites, you could fit a maximum of four in, and still have a bit of flexibility, for example:

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Death Guard (NetEA V0.3.2 Ian's local copy)
==================================================

DEATH GUARD RETINUE [400]
Lord of Pestilence (Supreme Commander), 4 Plague Marines, 3 Havocs, Chaos Spawn

DEATH GUARD RETINUE [625]
7 Plague Marines, Plague Tower (transport, uses an Elite slot), Nurgle Sorcerer

DEATH GUARD RETINUE [325]
4 Plague Marines, 3 Havocs, Nurgle Sorcerer

DEATH GUARD RETINUE [325]
4 Plague Marines, 3 Havocs, Nurgle Sorcerer

PLAGUE TOWER [350]
Plague Tower

PLAGUE TOWER [350]
Plague Tower

PLAGUE TOWER [350]
Plague Tower

FESTER TITAN [275]


Five isn't possible at 3k as Retinue plus (increased price) Tower transport is 625pt and in practice you'd probably be looking at a maximum of 2-3 Towers if you wanted to take Blight Drones or Terminators.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:35 pm 
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Any feedback from the Minigeddon tournament you went in IJW? What was your list?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:11 pm 
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I took:

Armoured Assault Company 250pt
6 Vindicators

Blight Drones 250pt
5 Blight Drones

Retinue (first half, BTS, around 250pt)
3 Plague Marines
Daemon Prince
Plague Hulk

Retinue (second half, around 250pt)
3 Plague Marine Havocs
1 DG Assault Dreadnought



The games weren't really representative enough to draw many conclusions from, especially as I'd taken an atypical list without any Barrage - which cost me dearly against Reedar's Speed Freaks who could safely bunch up to prevent clipping assaults.

Although the Vindicator formation definitely benefitted from the small table size.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:16 am 
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I did some 'sort of NetEA testing' this weekend at the UK GT, as I decided to take Contagion Engines with an attached Plague Tower. Although the rest of the list is slightly different from NetEA, this particular formation is almost identical.

You can read some mini-batreps from here onwards: viewtopic.php?p=601843#p601843

As feared, the split-personality nature of the formation makes it a noticeably inefficient use of the points. The Contagions want to be Sustaining to use indirect fire while the Plague Tower wants to be Doubling, Advancing or Engaging. Initiative 2+ was also a substantial issue for the formation across the five games, with a double-one to activate with SC re-roll in one game, and many many many failed rally attempts. In the three games where the formation broke, it never rallied again.

On the good side, it's an incredibly resilient BTS and was only destroyed in one game - although I didn't face any Deathstrikes and the pinpoint attacks that I faced all got aimed at other War Engines. And the couple of times when I did manage to fire both the Plague Tower and the Contagions at a target were truly glorious.

In any case, I have no qualms about Plague Towers added to a formation of Contagions not being limited by taking up a second slot.


On to more general matters. Work-dependant, I'll try and get a 0.3.2 PDF out in the next week. This is likely to have the following changes:
  • Blight Drones changed from Initiative 1+ to Initiative 2+.
  • Contagion Towers formation reduced back down to 325pt, and possibly also a unit name change to simply 'Contagions' to reduce confusion with Plague Towers and other lists.
  • Beasts of Nurgle changed from FF5+ to FF6+, probably with a minor unit name change to prevent issues with the Ghalamore Incursion list.
  • Plague Tower transports increased to 325pt and will use up an extra slot.
  • Plague Tower formations increased to 350pt per unit.
  • Plague Tower formations (and transports) possibly moved to the Elite slot.
  • Plague Lord character will gain Commander. Looking back at the old Compendium list, this appears to have got list in the major update when Steve54 starting updating the list.
  • Standard Defilers will be removed.


There are also some other potential changes I'd like to throw open to further discussion after various chats with players at the GT.

1. Plagueships

Players consistently complain about the Plagueship 'giving' you a formation of Plague Zombies and a barrage, and only costing 25pt more than a formation of Plague Zombies. Personally I think the much more restrictive placement and timing is OK for the price, and I don't want to make it any more expensive - so I'm considering dropping it from 4BP Disrupt to 3BP Disrupt as that takes away the second template and makes it much harder to hit a unit.


2. Grave Warden Terminators

I like the way the Grave Warden Terminators play, with their massed FF shots. However several people have pointed out that they're very close in feel to the Thousand Sons Terminators.

What I'm considering as a ay to differentiate them more is to remove Small Arms EA+1 and instead make their single FF attack Disrupt and Ignore Cover, while bumping up their ranged attack to 2 x 15cm AP4+/AT6+ Disrupt, Ignore Cover. This is mostly based on their alchemical weaponry in 40k.

One issue with this is that it feels a bit like 'Oh, it's Death Guard, just give it Disrupt!'. However Disrupt Firefight is nearly unknown in the game, I think the only existing example are the Reaver and Warlord equivalent Titans in EpicUK Death Guard, which I've never head of anyone taking. However Disrupt in assaults only helps if you lose the assault...

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:05 am 
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Would be sad to see the plague ship dropped to 3BP and the loss of defilers. Plague towers moved to elites, drones getting 2+ activation. Terminators too pricy to consider taking.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:37 am 
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atension wrote:
Would be sad to see the plague ship dropped to 3BP and the loss of defilers.

Plagueship - I kind of agree, but I also don't like the idea of bumping the price up. EDIT - something else to test would be to reduce the size of the Plague Zombie formation, maybe to 3+d6 or 3+2d3.

Defilers - are you using frequently taking Defilers over Desecrators (only source of AA, no garrison speed limits) or Plague Hulks (much better in CC)? EDIT 2 - I'm also considering bumping the FF on the Plague Hulk from 6+ to 5+ so that they're closer to other units with similar ranged weaponry, and not so binary against skimmers/non-skimmers.


atension wrote:
Plague towers moved to elites, drones getting 2+ activation.

Is that agreement or disagreement? ;)


atension wrote:
Terminators too pricy to consider taking.

As a whole, or the potential changes to Grave Wardens?

If Grave Wardens get changed to a single FF attack I want to test them with FF2+ Disrupt, Ignore Cover. A bit like the inverse of Close Assault Terminators.

I find Fearless makes DG Terminators overall tougher than EpicUK Deathwing who are the same cost once you add a character, and NetEA DG Terminators have Invulnerable Saves on top of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:24 am 
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Sorry yeah that was very vague. I just meant that the tower competing for the same spots as the terms, the terms would in most cases lose out. Not to mention how critical it is to have drones for objective reasons which would also compete for the same spot. Ive never actually even used terminators as they are to pricy to consider when trying to keep activation count up. The drones staying the same points but first losing their maw cannon then going to 2+ seems a little harsh for an activation that is all but essential for the list. It's really the only fast choice they list has. I do use defilers over desecrators because they are better utility in a group of straight walkers. Would never use only desacraters in a formation. Generally rely more heavily on the fliers to fill in the AA roles with intercepts. Desecrators are quite pricy for what they are. Consider how much better obliterators are for almost the same price. Also in many cases the space marine "know no fear" functions better than fearless. DG terms are so easy to break. Yeah they don't die but who cares broken formations can't do anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:39 am 
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Invulnerable on the terminators seems a bit extreme to me - i'd keep them cheaper to allow bulking out the formation as a viable option if more staying power required. Disrupt FF is interesting - probably won't see much use but interesting - only come in to effect if the terminators loose right?

Personally i would make the blight drones light vehicles (like landspeeders) and make them cheeper to allow the option to take more. Like a cloud of flies buzzing round the rotting lump of the rest of the army - feels right.

Other changes sound good too.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:10 pm 
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atension wrote:
Sorry yeah that was very vague. I just meant that the tower competing for the same spots as the terms, the terms would in most cases lose out. Not to mention how critical it is to have drones for objective reasons which would also compete for the same spot.

Aye, and many thanks for the feedback!


atension wrote:
Ive never actually even used terminators as they are to pricy to consider when trying to keep activation count up.

I've not used them often, but they've always performed well. But then I don't bother too much with high activation count and typically have 8-10 activations at 3k.


atension wrote:
The drones staying the same points but first losing their maw cannon then going to 2+ seems a little harsh for an activation that is all but essential for the list. It's really the only fast choice they list has.

You're comparing to the 2.3.1 list from Frogbear? Unless I've misread things, they were Initiative 2+ due to being Daemon Engines. They also went from Armour 5+ to 4+ while losing the 15cm Vomit Cannon.

Please bear in mind that I'm coming from a background of being an EpicUK DG player, where the formation simply doesn't exist - so I have a slightly different take on how essential they are for the list. ;)


atension wrote:
I do use defilers over desecrators because they are better utility in a group of straight walkers. Would never use only desacraters in a formation. Generally rely more heavily on the fliers to fill in the AA roles with intercepts. Desecrators are quite pricy for what they are. Consider how much better obliterators are for almost the same price.

Thanks. This is why I ask for feedback, because this is the third time I've proposed dropping standard Defilers from the list and nobody's asked that they be kept in!

I tend to default to Desecrators again due to coming from EpicUK DG where they're a slightly better unit.

What changes would you make to Desecrators to make them more attractive, without being overpowered if used in a garrison-heavy force? I've been considering making them closer to the EpicUK equivalent by bumping the CC from 4+ to 3+ and giving them Infiltrate.



atension wrote:
Also in many cases the space marine "know no fear" functions better than fearless. DG terms are so easy to break. Yeah they don't die but who cares broken formations can't do anything.

Again, this is why I ask for feedback, because my experiences are very different - but that's probably because most of the time I see SM Terminators on the table they're getting broken as easily as Fearless ones due to Disrupt hits, and then dying very easily once broken...



Blip wrote:
Invulnerable on the terminators seems a bit extreme to me - i'd keep them cheaper to allow bulking out the formation as a viable option if more staying power required. Disrupt FF is interesting - probably won't see much use but interesting - only come in to effect if the terminators loose right?

It would only kick in if the Terminators (or a unit they're providing supporting fire for) lose, which is a big knock against it, and a reason for making them FF2+.


Blip wrote:
Personally i would make the blight drones light vehicles (like landspeeders) and make them cheeper to allow the option to take more. Like a cloud of flies buzzing round the rotting lump of the rest of the army - feels right.

As they're shared with the Red Corsairs list (which is very close to approval) a unit profile change is tricky - although this is a change that my local players would love to see when comparing them to Land Speeders.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:20 pm 
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Have to disagree with the desecrators vs defilers assessment. Defilers are faster, better range, better AT, infiltrate and better FF. Just lacking the AA. Only ever used desecrators for upgrades to garrisonING marine formations. In a group of walkers by themselves other than the AA they would only serve as an objective guard and not a very good one due to their slow speed and low unit count. Your changes (past as well) seem to focus this lists strategy on requiring large formations garrisoning. Relying on this type of strategy, once your opponent picks up on it, it puts you at a large disadvantage as they can easily dictate/perdict your placement. Find myself getting hit by space craft bombardment more often than not. 3+ armour is nice but against MW it means nothing.

As for the terms I can't say I agree that 8 BM is just as easy to bread as 4 BM. Even two direct hits with BP disrupt would not have a good chance of breaking a formation of SM terms. But a very good chance of breaking DG terms. Remember it takes two BMS for hack down kills per one unit also. Terms also don't lose combat often if you are playing them right and not crazy unlucky.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:32 pm 
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Hmm, I think we may be talking past each other to some extent - I didn't say that Desecrators are as good as Defilers, I said that the EpicUK Defilers (which are somewhere between standard Defilers and Desecrators) are better than the Desecrators, and asked what you thought would make Desecrators a more equal choice.

Now that I know there is someone who uses standard Defilers, they'll stay in the list - that's exactly why it was proposed several times instead of simply dropping them.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:19 pm 
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Hmm. Desecrators don't really need to be improved. They are reasonable for their current cost and are a reasonable upgrade for AA coverage. Was just concerned the defilers would disappear, if they did the walker formation would be much less attractive. The only viable option would be all hulKS. I guess you just need to figure out how to ballance the desecrators with the walker formation (if thats a concern). Right now the walker horde is most useful for its reasonable speed plus infiltrate adding one desecrators and your formation loses much of its potency for a little AA. Making the desecrators faster means it can't garrison as easily, adding infiltration though would help but you still lose 10 cm of effectivess for your charges.

As for the terminators I know ballance, fluff and points all factor in. They just seem to be getting too powerful per unit requiring the cost of them to be too high in relation to their effectiveness in terms of their formation size. My biggest concern is how easy they are to break. They are really impressive per unit but they can so easily be circumvented and poof 400 points gone. True you can just say the hell with teleporting and throw in some land raiders for one truly formidable BTS but you'll almost never get it into assaults against valuable targets. The meta I play in has become very effective with scouts being able to shutdown titans and other monster formations for at least 2/3 of the game. This is a huge detriment for the DG since they are already prohibitively slow. I do plan to try a terminator formation that can summon a bunch of demons, it would help a bit assuming you win the initiative and you get an icon bearer. Still cost 450 points though plus daemons. I'm an advocate of making the terminators less expensive with the ability to add more terminators to the formation and reduce their stats.

Any chance you'd consider adding a formation of DG bikes, raptors or chosen scouts? Would be very enthusiastic for some bike formations!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:48 pm 
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More fast moving troops for a Deathguard list??

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:22 pm 
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Dont drop the defilers and the 4BP spaceship.

Want to build a Death Guard list, and really like the defilers and spaceship.


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