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Death Guard v0.3

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:40 pm 
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Ok maybe bikes and possibly raptors would be a little too much. But chosen would be good. Looking for a cheap scout-ish option in the 125 -175pts range to increase activation count other than zombies that has at least a bit of mobility.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:25 pm 
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atension wrote:
Any chance you'd consider adding a formation of DG bikes, raptors or chosen scouts? Would be very enthusiastic for some bike formations!


As it happens...

I picked up some Chaos Terminators (to be able to field a second formation) and they happened to come with some Chaos Bikers - on the way back from the GT I was joking to Blip that adding Plague Marine Bikers to the Death Guard might get me lynched... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:10 pm 
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Joking aside, I can sort of see a Plague Marine Bike Company working. Something like this:

INF Speed 25cm Armour 3+ CC3+ FF4+ Fearless, Mounted
Upgrades: Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer
7 stands plus Lord character for around 350pt
Probably an Elite Formation.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:26 pm 
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I don't really see the point to be honest. Plague drones, while not very fighty, take on the speedy role quite well. I personally don't think nurgle armies should have fast AND fighty units due to the slow n steady theme


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:39 pm 
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I'd be happy to try bikes out, but they might disrupt the overall theme of the list too much like LeCacty said. The very first rogue trader death guard 40k list had bikers in it, so it's within reason in my opinion. There was only one 40k list that didn't have Nurgle bikers from memory. I was planning to run black legion to use my bikers, but this works too ;)

On Blight Drones: I like the proposed 2+ to activate. I think their stats as they are are good, and they are probably priced about right for the 2+ activation. Having them as Elites keeps them from being spammed too easily.

On Grave Wardens: I like them as they are, but hadn't considered the similarities to the T-Sons. I'd be happy to try them out.

On Defilers: when I run a pack it is 3xAA and 1xP Hulk. I've never fielded the Defiler itself, so wouldn't miss it. But I see Atensions point that it is a good speedy formation, especially valuable if you don't have any blight drones.

Beasts of Nurgle: happy with the reduced FF value.

Plague Towers: I'd rather see them in the war engine section than the elites, so they are competing with other big, disrupting, hard to kill things. Seems more internally balanced to me.

But good work overall IJW! Keep it up :)

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:41 am 
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For the bikes I was envisioning a smaller formation. The list has enough larger point formations. What it really needs is a versitile smaller one similar to marine scouts. I think a 4 unit formation of possessed or chosen would fit nicely eg.

"4 Possessed/Chosen of Nurgle" 150pts
INF 15cm AR: +3, CC +4, FF +4, fearless, scout,
Upgrades: rhinos, landraiders, dreadnoughts, icon bearer, Demonic pact, champion, chaos spawn.

Put them in the plague marine retinue section but change the elite and support section requirements to reflect just the # of plague marine formation not possessed/chosen.

You would see a lot more deamon friendly lists. Currently all my builds exclude them so I can maintain 9-10 activations.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:40 pm 
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One of the primary design concepts of the Death Guard list is that it doesn't contain 'popcorn' formations beyond the Plague Zombies. This is precisely why the Armoured Assault Company was added instead of being able to take a cheap Armoured Company of four DG Vindicators.

We could look at the World Eaters Chosen for inspiration and try four units plus a character for 200pt, but anything cheaper than that is unlikely to happen.


Plague Marine Bikers - they've existed in multiple editions of 40k Death Guard lists, but I don't feel any particular need for them. As far as speed goes, at 25cm they'd be the same speed as a Rhino-mounted Retinue but with a slightly lower Engage range due to dismounting gains. They'd just be more reliably 25cm due to being much tougher than Rhinos. I'm not going to add them to the 0.3.2 PDF, but if anyone fancies trying the version upthread I'd like to hear how they got on.

Defilers - just to reassure everyone, they are staying in, and I've added them back into the upcoming 0.3.2 PDF.

Plagueship - for 0.3.2 I've kept 4BP Disrupt but reduced the Zombies from a 'full' formation of 3+2d6 to 3+2d3.

DG Terminators - one of the issues here is that background-wise, all Marines in the Death Guard are Plague Marines, so they pretty much have to be Fearless. And that means that it's going to be very hard to justify them being cheaper than loyalist Terminators.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:05 pm 
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Still have the same concerns about how detrimental the slowness of the formations and not being able to march combined with the list concept prohibiting cheaper formations making activation count comparitively low. Low activation plus slow means your enemy very often sets up engagements in their favor. This list is only mediocre for shooting, has great armour and good engagement potential but not much ability to actually choose engagements. The large formation garrison strategy worKS well to start but can be countered. Hoping to get other people's play testing opinions. Maybe I'm missing something but I always seem to be on the defensive, entrenchING objectives if I can get to them, then hoping for the best. IJW would love to see some battle reports. Hoping to get an opportunity to capture a match soon myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:47 pm 
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Sure. viewtopic.php?p=601843#p601843 has some mini-batreps from the UK GT last weekend. That was obviously using the EpicUK list and was slightly atypical in that I'd intentionally taken an unoptimised list to try out the Contagions + Plague Tower formation for NetEA purposes.

Full batrep, NetEA DG 0.2 against EpicUK Iyanden: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=29361
Full batrep, NetEA DG 0.3.1 against EpicUK Dark Angels: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31050
Full batrep, NetEA DG 0.3.1 against NetEA Speed Freaks: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31014

Some very mini-batreps from Counterattack (EpicUK) last year: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=28856&p=553652
And from Exeter Entrenchment (EpicUK) last year: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=29696&p=567805

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:03 am 
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And a couple of 0.2 batreps from late 2015: viewtopic.php?p=575831#p575831

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:13 am 
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Just comparing this list to the thousand sons list. That list is crazy power creep. Has everything! Good shooting and range mounted on skimmers, good speed, lots of fearless, great AA, amazing war engines that can summon daemons, lots of RA, teleporters, good fliers, drop pods, the best lesser daemons and portals to boot!!

IMO the best part about the DG list is the plague towers. Seems that others have picked up on this (multiple posts about Tower spam). I find nothing else very exciting. The plague ship is a pale shadow of its original incarnation. I really want to like the deathguard I was very excited when steve posted it because I've always been a fan of Nurgle. Please take no offense, none is intended but I'm finding it's just no longer fun to play. If you want it to be slow with fewer large formations, great makes sense. But I needs something more than it currently has to make it fun/viable to play. Was really hoping it would evolve into a deamon centric list. Lots of medium size formations slowly moving up the board that can summon hordes of demons and daemon engines. Was also hoping the plague zombies would take on a bigger role. Add in a special rule converting enemy kills in engagements into plague zombies, now that would be interesting. Why can't DG use dread claws or thunderhawks. Anyways just food for thought. I'm likely going to shelve my DG or with your permission create my own alternative DG list.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:30 am 
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Damn, wrote a long answer to atension and then deleted it! Will log in on my computer and write it again!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:33 am 
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Lol. Looking forward to it. I hate when that happens!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:44 am 
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Ok here goes:

I agree very much with you of the power creep of the TS list. It's being taken in a direction away from a balanced list. If it is approved in it's current i will make sure it is banned on any tournaments I host here in Sweden (I host atleast half of them).

But, just because one list is crazy OP doesn't mean that we should follow after with other lists. And reading your posts kinda makes me feel that you will be adding to that power creep if you did a list.

DG for me is a slow moving, low activation army with hard to kill units and lots of disrupt weaponry. To give them access to dreadclaws for instance would take away one of thoose drawbacks and make the list way better. I say better, not balanced.

But this is the general problem of the NetEA this last year. Lots of new players are coming in as AC:s of lists they really like and are making them more powerfull instead of balanced. I think the whole of NetEA is actually going down the drain because of this and will end up in a bad place if theese people (on all levels) are allowed to continue their work.

EpicUK is a fine example how to create balanced lists! And they have tons of experience since they play a huge amount of game seach year. I think the EpicUK lists shows that you can't have all the cool stuff in a list because it creates to powerfull synergies. And for me the most important thing is a balanced game.
My only critique of the EpicUK guys is that they are somewhat slow to fix lists that are way to bad (Ulani tank list for example) to be able to use in tournaments.

And i do feel the urge of making a cool and good list in my work with the Gargants list. It's very easy to start doing that because you like "your" list so much.

I think IJW Wartrader is doing a great job with the list. He is trying to make it balanced instead of better (as in better to win with). I think you're caught in the "fan" view a little with this. No offense.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:15 am 
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Didn't mean to draw the comparison that the DG list should be more like the thousand sons. Was just shocked when I read it. The two paragraphs were independant thoughts, though I can see how it was a little confusing. Just meant that it needs something more exciting (while maintaining balance of course). Would really like a bit of variability in list creation. As it stands the only viable lists revolve around plague towers. Much of the other disrupt shooting isn't nearly as viable.
-The plague reapers have a ton for fire power but are crazy slow and short range.
-The fester titan is mediocre compared to the warhound.
-The contagion towers are mediocre in terms of functionality.
-The larger titans are over priced.
-Terminators are too powerful/unit and as a consequence cost too much as a formation that can so easily be broken.
-I like the drones but they have been nerfed twice.
-I really liked the plague ship but that is being nerfed considerably as well.
-The hulks are interesting but as a unit of 4 and being engagement focused are also very easy to break and are also rather pricy to be able to break so easily.

All in all I don't think the benifits balance with the drawbacks. Fearless is nice, good armour is also nice but EA is about objectives, movement and placement are critical to victory.

@Mordoten - My list would be different but balanced. Also I've played the bigmob list against DG 0.3.1. I like the big mob list but it ate the DG badly... 3+ armour means nothing against BP MW.

I like the idea about FF disrupt! I would really like daemons to be more centric to the list.

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