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Death Guard v0.3

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:05 pm 
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Yeah I usually upgrade retinues with havocs as well but it meant that my SC would be my BTS and I would have less daemons.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:28 pm 
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Thank you for your work on the list! I really like your changes. Especially with the grave wardens. As i've mentioned in the original death guard thread, it always set at odds with me for them losing two ranged attacks for just a single +1 ea ff and no points change. The new statt look very solid now. I also like the idea and stats of the assault dreadnought.

Regarding the demons issue i would suggest one simple thing. Leave the stats as they are but put the beasts on 2 summoning points, the bearers as ever on 1 and the nuglings on 2 stands per 1 point. Cant get single ones. Horde. Also this prevents the beasts from being auto buy and their stats justify 2 points imo. (and I oh so love my old models :))


Keep up the good work

Cheers ;D

Edit:
One "complaint" though, please give the dreads back their walker treat. They become very vulnerable to terrain otherwise an simply need to be fielded with infantery and be able to simulate their moves. Inv save is no big deal on those one or two units and they are hindered enough by not being able to march. And well they are bipedal and walkers for logic and consistencies sake throughout the lists. :'(


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:06 am 
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Thanks!

I think the Beasts would need an extra buff to be worth two Plaguebearers, but this could be a good chance to add some kind of Disrupt as a reference back to their slime trail back in Slaves to Darkness.

Nurgling Swarms might need some form of reduction, they're already really handy in an assault as you can pretty much guarantee that an opponent won't get any kills for combat resolution.

For the Dreadnoughts I agree, even with the increased armour of 3+, the NetEA Chaos Dreads still seem to be an unpopular upgrade.


Meanwhile, tonight saw the 3k game against Speed Freaks. We called it after the start of turn three as a Death Guard victory as the Orks were down to three unbroken activations, but when we investigated further it wasn't as overwhelming as it first looked, and would probably have gone 2-0. A full batrep should go up later this week.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:26 pm 
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Batrep up: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31014

Formation-specific notes to come...

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:51 pm 
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So...

Plagueship - this definitely had an impact in the game, but not that much more than the slightly cheaper Plague Zombie formation. The barrage is countered by much stronger restrictions on arrival time and placement of the formation. Having to bunch up the Zombies makes it substantially harder to block off a whole flank of an army from moving forwards.

DG Assault Dreads - they didn't play a noticeable part in the game in terms of their FF Extra Attacks, but having two in the garrisoning BTS definitely helped beef up the formation. Given the slow nature of the Death Guard army, additional supporting fire shots are going to be relatively hard to set up. More testing needed, but so far they look fine. I'm inclined to go with Graf_Spee's request and add Walker back on both Dreadnoughts.

Vindicators/Armoured Assault Company - they put out a lot of punishment when they get close enough, but being barely faster than infantry that can take some doing. I don't think any changes are needed at the moment. On a sub-note, Plague Hulks synergise very well with them to help protect against assaults.

Blight Drones - these will drop to Initiative 2+, they just don't 'feel' right at 1+.

Walker Formations/Desecrators - garrisoning formations with multiple AA units in is always going to be a bit hard to balance, however in this game they never got to fire AA at all, although they did force the Bommas to leave by the wrong table edge once. Chaos Spawn to bulk up the formation size and to let them spread out from a garrisoning formation is very useful and helps dissuade CC-oriented assaulters, but at the cost of making it a mixed INF/AV formation. One thing I'll be testing in future games is adding Assault Dreads to the formation as well, with four Desecrators and no Plague Hulk. Standard Defilers are likely to go as they're not really needed.

Plague Towers - oh my word, these are hard to balance. In this particular game they formed a (literally) invulnerable pair of anchors in the list and the right flank one was the only formation tough enough to risk sending into the big swarm of Warbikes, Trukks and Boyz to be able to get all the supporting fire. On the other hand it only suffered two activations-worth of shooting (one Double and one Sustain from Gunwagons plus Speedstas) and was never actively assaulted. I can see a big bunch of Boyz swarming it and then winning on combat res. I've also had a game where a Phantom one-shotted one by getting four TK hits and a couple of crits. They might get a bump up to 350pt in their own formation depending on their performance in future batreps.

Basically, they're a bit of a binary formation in a Strategy 4 list - if the opponent has TK weapons or a lot of MW/Lance they're going to get demolished, but armies without TK/MW/Lance are really going to struggle to do enough damage.

Plague Reaper - although I tend to use one of these as a Blitz guard, they can be nice and aggressive if doubled up the table in turn one to take part in mid-table fights in turns 2-3. Heavily tested and fine as-is.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:08 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
I think the Beasts would need an extra buff to be worth two Plaguebearers, but this could be a good chance to add some kind of Disrupt as a reference back to their slime trail back in Slaves to Darkness.

Nurgling Swarms might need some form of reduction, they're already really handy in an assault as you can pretty much guarantee that an opponent won't get any kills for combat resolution.


yeah the beast could do with some buff. maybe .. well it sounds pretty weird but.. why not give the beasts "scout". would represent the toxic slime surrounding them and would give an interesting aspect to playstyle. also would justify the 2 points per unit. or to odd mechanism wise?

and to fix the nurglings and justify 2 per summoning point accordingly: let them count vs. casualties but increase their save to 3+ again, that they will not blow any assaultroll by being auto kill due to low armour. they are so many, they should be hard to put down for sure.

might that work?


ha! and i love your batrep with the cool visual effects! looks really cool and was fun to read. i appriciate all the effort that went into it.
btw. which minis did you use for your zombies? the look like bugs to me.. ;D


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:58 pm 
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Note that there's a typo in the 0.3.1 PDF, the Nurgling Swarms should have Scout so that mechanic is already on test. :)

Although I agree, Scout could also work for the slime trails the Beasts of Nurgle leave, but that's also my justification for considering Disrupt on their CC and possibly on their FF attacks.

Here's another Nurgling profile to have a look at, going back to earlier ideas:

NURGLING SWARM (v5)
INF move 10cm Armour 4+ CC6+ FF-
Sharp teeth (base contact)
Expendable, Invulnerable Save. Nurglings do not count towards the size of the summoning formation. Each summoning point provides two Nurgling Swarm units.

My concern is that the usual Expendable rule for Summoned Daemons will make the formation semi-immune to non-Barrage shooting for the turn, as an average roll is going to give you eight units of Nurglings turning up, or an average of sixteen if you've got a Chaos Champion. Even in combat it's going to be a pretty big boost - the formation is a bit less likely to win the combat due to the Nurglings being slightly easier to kill than a Plague Marine or Plague Havoc, but due to hit allocation you could easily put all the hits onto the Nurglings and have the actual Retinue take no casualties.


For Beasts of Nurgle I was just going to add Disrupt to their attacks, and then realised that it would only have an effect when the formation lost the assault. :( Another possibility would be to use their current profile as-is but with 4+ Reinforced Armour, meaning that they'd have a lower damage output than two Plaguebearers but would be able to take incoming hits better.


The visual effects in the batrep photos were added with an iOS app called LensFX, I heard about it on one of the Facebook Epic groups, it's great for this kind of thing as it helps you see who was doing what.

The Zombies are a mix of all sorts of things - there are original Nurglings, some early Eighties Citadel scorpions, some metal centipedes from an unknown manufacturer and some 40k-scale Tyranid glands.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:01 am 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
Note that there's a typo in the 0.3.1 PDF, the Nurgling Swarms should have Scout so that mechanic is already on test. :)

Although I agree, Scout could also work for the slime trails the Beasts of Nurgle leave, but that's also my justification for considering Disrupt on their CC and possibly on their FF attacks.

Here's another Nurgling profile to have a look at, going back to earlier ideas:

NURGLING SWARM (v5)
INF move 10cm Armour 4+ CC6+ FF-
Sharp teeth (base contact)
Expendable, Invulnerable Save. Nurglings do not count towards the size of the summoning formation. Each summoning point provides two Nurgling Swarm units.

My concern is that the usual Expendable rule for Summoned Daemons will make the formation semi-immune to non-Barrage shooting for the turn, as an average roll is going to give you eight units of Nurglings turning up, or an average of sixteen if you've got a Chaos Champion. Even in combat it's going to be a pretty big boost - the formation is a bit less likely to win the combat due to the Nurglings being slightly easier to kill than a Plague Marine or Plague Havoc, but due to hit allocation you could easily put all the hits onto the Nurglings and have the actual Retinue take no casualties.



well in order to get 16 (and the average with champion would rather be 14) you would need to have purchsed them first hand. and with a dg i rarely see or would field that big a demon pool. the points are needed elsewhere i think. so i donn't think you would see that type of spamming in battle actually. but you're point is taken and valid and needs further consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:09 am 
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4d3 averages to eight, double that to 16.

If I'm running Daemons with Death Guard, the Lesser Daemon Pool tends to be 5-10 strong, so 10-20 Nurgling Swarms if they're two per summoning point. By the time you've got Daemonic Pact on a couple of formations, a ten-strong Pool is only another 120pt.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:38 pm 
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I just realised that you meant each base would still count as one Lesser Daemon from the Pool, they'd just be easier/harder to summon. Oops...

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:00 pm 
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am I reading the nurgling rules correctly that they don't count towards combat resolution?

if so that seems to be pretty overpowered and easily abused, especially if you get twice the summoning roll's worth, you can basically summon an ablative meatshield of grot-equivalents which soak up the hits and don't count towards combat score.... an average roll nets you 8 bases worth that the opponent has to chew through before the return attacks actually count, and unlike grots or gaunts, these puppies have 5+ armour and an invulnerable save.... I don't think the 10cm move and not counting toward unit size really compensates for that myself.... I'd be happy to be proven wrong of course, but at face value that seems much much too good

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:04 pm 
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The current 0.3.1 version costs 1SP per stand while not counting for Combat Res or formation size. So you'd typically be able to summon four stands and have them soak combat hits, at the cost of depleting the Daemon Pool pretty quickly.

If two stands per SP ever happens, they'll have the normal Expendable rule, and even then I'm not sure it can be balanced given how much protection that would give against shooting.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:34 pm 
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As Plague Towers are a cross-list unit, I've started a new thread to discuss their speed here: viewtopic.php?f=82&t=31022

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:23 pm 
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Can we also look at the Plagueship again?

I got a game in last Friday with my Orks facing off against CAA's Death Guard list (as previously posted). Some very odd dice rolls resulted in a 4th turn VP draw to the DG. Basically the DG stomped anything the Orks threw at them for the first two turns and then the dice changes and the Orks were heavily on top and only a couple of models away from sneaking an undeserved win.

Generally the DG performed as I would expect, except that the Plagueship with the 'drop' Zombies seems too cheap.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.3
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:57 pm 
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Yes, I'm happy to look at the Plagueship again. My main justification for keeping it cheap at the moment is that you lose the 'main' use of the Plague Zombies, which is to teleport in spread out in a long line to stop the enemy advancing.

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