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Death Guard v0.2

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:52 am 
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Actually, on second glance that's not a Journal link either... it's another experimental list, though it was published in Fanatic Online - the original version appears to be here: http://www.specialist-arms.com/fanatic/90dg.pdf

Given that all the god-specific Defilers appear to be invented by the NetEA community, there probably won't be any official artwork to base a conversion off. Weapons aren't too different to a stock Defiler (reaper autocannons, claws and a 'vomit cannon') so any of the various crab-walker proxies could fit the part.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:11 pm 
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Tooling around with a new list. Trying to take the tips of the last one. again not going to tourneys, and looking for something as a all commers list.

Both Rets are in garrison at start/overwatch.
Termies drop on any nasty arty or something that I need to hit hard.
Lots of distupt all around.
4 Dececrators are deployed in the middle of my line and spread out 5 cm completly to cover lots of area for anti AA and slowly advance the line up.

Let me know anything that might make it better or what should be moved around. Havent build the models yet but trying to get something as this is next on my plate to do.
2990pts

4 Plague Marine Ret
3 Havoks
4 Rhino
1 Sup Commander
--440
4 Plague Marine Ret - Garrison
3 Havoks
1 Sorc
---350
4 Death shroud Termies
1 Lord
---400
5 Blight Drone
---250
Fester
---275
Walker Horde/ 4 Dececrators
---275
Zombies
---175
4 Preds
--200
4 Cont Engines
--325
1 Plague Tower
--300


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:26 pm 
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The Retinue with Rhinos can't garrison as it has more than one unit faster than 15cm.

Apart from that, the only issue I can see is that the Supreme Commander is in the most expensive formation, making that formation a double-priority target in the standard EA mission.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:41 pm 
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Doh. In my notes I removed it, just forgot to change list. Id take them out and add in 1 more pred.

Problem is I dont know where to stick the sup commander


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:10 pm 
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The SC tends to be fine in a Retinue, I'm just not sure what to adjust to make another formation cost more than 400pt. It's not the end of the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:10 am 
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Further to the discussion on the fact that the desecrator doesn't really appear in published canon, and therefore not everyone's cup of tea, how would people feel about havocs covering the AA duties with flak missiles? The same as the Legion heavy support units, r45 AA6+, characterful and useful, but not really overpowering.
Either as an addition, or instead of the desecrator. The models can still be used as defilers.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:36 am 
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Sounds like an interesting idea. lol im just in the processing building some desecrators.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:08 pm 
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oh, i really like the idea of the havoc aa. only a single attack mper stand i assume?
mhmm.. on second thought i think this might genrate quite some issues with havocs in the other lists then. unless aa is removed from the desecrators.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:33 am 
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I got a couple of games in today, woo!

Death Guard (NetEA V0.2)
==================================================

DEATH GUARD RETINUE [500]
4 Plague Marines, 3 Havoc, Nurgle Sorcerer, Daemonic Pact (includes 1 Plaguebearer), Desecrator, 3 Chaos Spawn

DEATH GUARD RETINUE [450]
4 Plague Marines, 3 Havoc, Lord of Pestilence (Supreme Commander), 2 Chaos Spawn, Daemonic Pact (includes 1 Plaguebearer)

DEATH SHROUD TERMINATORS [475]
2 Death Shroud Terminator, Nurgle Sorcerer, 2 Grave Warden Terminator, Chaos Champion, Daemonic Pact (includes 1 Plaguebearer)

CONTAGION ENGINES [325]
4 Contagion Engines

PLAGUE TOWER [300]
Plague Tower

ARMOURED COMPANY [305]
4 Nurgle Predator, 3 Nurgle Vindicator

DAEMON POOL [95]
3 +3 for the Daemonic Pacts for a total of 6 x Plaguebearers, Great Unclean One

FESTER TITAN [275]

FESTER TITAN [275]


The main idea behind the list was to try a kitted-out Terminator formation (8 FF dice plus lots of daemon-summoning) and to give opponents a nasty choice between bunching up to protect against clipping assaults by the Terminators and spreading out to avoid Disrupt barrages.


Game One Minervan IG

From memory the list was something like this:
Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Minervan Tank Legion (NetEA Tournament Pack 2014)
==================================================

ARTILLERY COMPANY [600]
9 Basilisk

TANK COMPANY [625]
10 Leman Russ

TANK COMPANY [425]
10 Thunderer

STORM TROOPER PLATOON [350]
8 Storm Troopers, Valkyrie Transport

MARAUDER BOMBERS [250]
2 Marauders

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

Attachment:
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 1017.13 KiB | Viewed 3489 times ]


The view from my side of the table.

I garrisoned both DG Retinues into ruins in the middle of the table and the Contagion Engines off my blitz to get them a bit further forwards. The Blitzes were 5cm in from the table edge due to the cloth being 130cm wide.

The game started with the Terminators coming in behind the Leman Russ BTS formation behind the hill on my right flank, getting no BMs on landing, the Plague Tower doubling to the right to put some BMs on the Russes (a measly 3-4BMs and no kills, considering the templates hit every single tank!) and the Terminators retaining to bring down Uncle Fester (the GUC) and a Plaguebearer before Engaging the Russes. After some particularly fine rolling, the Commissar's Fearless Russ sped out of the smoke and ran for the hills, leaving behind the unharmed Terminator formation.

To some extent, things went downhill from there for the Guard and I think the game ended 4-0 due to never successfully hunting down that darn Fearless Russ with Commissar.

Other notable events included:
The blitz-guarding Basilisk company being broken by a sustaining Fester Titan who'd got all the way across the board in the first two turns thanks to a road.
The three Shadowswords rolling an unlikely number of ones to either activate or to hit, I think the main damage inflicted was a couple of DCs taken off a Fester Titan and killing the wounded Great Unclean One, thereby breaking the Terminators.
The sole Desecrator (only AA in the list) getting suppressed before any of the aircraft arrived.
The other Fester Titan breaking the Stormtroopers on the far left flank (double up behind the brown ruins on the far left flank and shoot followed by sustaining the next turn) and then following them over a hill and wiping them out to a man via massed Disrupt hits.
The Predator and Vindicator formation being a bit slow, but due to the formation size coping with a Shadowsword pretty easily - although their attempts to shoot down the broken Russ Commissar (and destroy the BTS) all came to naught, it survived the rest of the game!
Lack of AA in the list did hurt, but the formations were beefy enough to mostly cope with the flyer attacks - although the Terminator stand that died to one strafing run managed to roll threes ones in a roll for armour, reinforced armour and then the Invulnerable Save for the Chaos
Champion.

Unit-specific feedback:
The FF power of the Terminators never kicked in as they all reached base contact in their one assault.
The sole Plague Tower did a reasonable job of prepping the Russes for the assault and then helping break the Shadowsword on that flank, then holding one of the three objectives in my table half. 20cm move made a difference in all three turns of the game.
Chaos Spawn are a godsend for bulking up the DG Retinues and being able to lose units without losing ranged and firefight capability, especially stacked with a few summoned daemons as well.
I did miss the ability to summon Daemonic Beasts, which I use for Beast of Nurgle models in EpicUK lists, but keeping it all Plaguebearers is also fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:04 am 
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Game Two - Blip's Bieltan Eldar

Incompertus, 2875 POINTS - I'm not sure where the other 125pt were.
Biel-Tan Craftworld (Epic-UK v121013)
==================================================

AVATAR [0]

ASPECT WARRIOR WARHOST [600]
4 Dire Avenger, 4 Wave Serpent, Exarch, Autarch, 2 Fire Dragon, 2 Dark Reaper

GUARDIAN WARHOST (MOUNTED) [350]
Farseer, 4 Wave Serpents, 4 Guardians, 3 Heavy Weapon Platform

RANGER TROUPE [150]
6 Ranger

WINDRIDER TROUPE [200]
5 Jetbike, Vyper

NIGHT SPINNER TROUPE [200]
3 Night Spinners, Spirit Stones

VOID SPINNER [275]

WARLOCK TITAN [850]

FALCON TROUPE [250]
3 Falcon, 2 Fire Storm

Attachment:
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 1.19 MiB | Viewed 3483 times ]


I forgot to take a photo, so this one shows the previous game of Nids v Marines. I deployed on the left side of the photo and placed the far side objectives around the hill in the foreground of the photo, Blip was on the right side and placed his two far side objectives around the hill at the back of the photo, the one surrounded by yellow Marines, clearly aiming for a position where the Warlock Titan could take both of them. My Contagion Engines garrisoned behind that hill, the big Retinue in the central city and the smaller SC Retinue in the city in the middle of my table side. The Warlock Titan went in the middle of the Eldar deployment zone near the Aspect Host and the Night Spinners and Guardians were off on my right flank behind The city bottom-right in the photo, with a screen of Rangers up on the halfway line.

This time the Terminators didn't do nearly so well, landing near the Night Spinners and picking up two BMs on landing and my then losing the initiative roll to Blip, who took advantage of this to shoot the Terminators with the Rangers and then the Guardian Host, killing one stand but breaking them anyway. They decided to hang around the Night Spinners and attempt to look scary. The Avatar had also turned up at the start due to the Terminators, but he bounced off them being unable to get into the city they were hiding in.

At this point things didn't look good. I had been considering holding back the Terminators to help deal with the Warlock once it got closer but was really scared of the Titan Killer firefight attacks if Blip managed to get the Warlock positioned for supporting fire on them.


Other notable events included:
My DG Retinue BTS garrisoning too far forwards and suffering for it, eventually surviving an assault with the Warlock Titan with the Sorcerer Lord stand a Havoc stand, who, being Fearless, spent the rest of the game refusing to die.
The BTS getting sandwiched between the Warlock and the Aspect Host (who had previously munched an unsupported Fester Titan), only to see the Aspects fail to Engage due to a BM, then fail their Supreme Commander re-roll. The Aspects repositioned to keep the BTS bottled up near the Warlock and provide supporting fire, but this left them too strung out and a clipping assault from my Warlord's Retinue managed to break the Aspect Host! Which I then punished with the remnants of the Contagion Engine formation, wiping them out to a pointy ear and removing the SC.
The Rangers managed to stop the Plague Tower advancing up the right flank or moving across to provide supporting fire against the Warlock, so it ended up heading back to guard my Blitz, after nearly breaking the Guardians that had broken the Terminators.
The Terminators eventually rallied at the end of turn two, and in turn three summoned Uncle Fester the GUC (at maximum 20cm coherency) so that the formation could Double towards the Warlock and get Uncle Fester into supporting fire range of the Warlock back in the middle of the table, putting a BM or two on the Warlock on the way.
A semi-suicidal Engage by the Warlord's Retinue into the Warlock Titan actually saw them put some damage on it without too many non-daemon casualties, getting the Warlock down to 2DC remaining (I'd been slowly getting hits through here and there) but this let it consolidate across between the two forward objectives on my table half, where it shot and broke the Contagion Engines, although one managed to survive.
The Guardian Host assaulting the remnants of the broken Predator/Vindicator formation (who had been moving up the right flank taking pot-shots at the Rangers), only to be beaten off due to their 4+ FF values, fleeing towards my two forward objectives on the other end of the table.
The remaining two Terminators and GUC reversing direction to assault the Falcon formation holding the two forward objectives in the Eldar table half, beating them and neatly moving up to hold the same two objectives.
Then the second big game-changer that swung it to an overwhelming Death
Guard victory - the Plague Tower that had been 'forced' back to my Blitz did an Advance to get LoF to the Warlock holding two objectives and managed to take off it's last DCs and incidentally clipping the now-rallied Guardian formation that was also holding those two objectives, breaking the formation without any hits due to 6 Barrage Points and therefore 2BMs for being fired at.

The end result was:
BTS kill,
Holding all three objectives in my half (the last two units from the BTS and the sole remaining Contagion Engine had all rallied the previous turn and moved up),
Holding two objectives in the enemy half.
For a 3-0 result.


Unit-specific feedback:
Even though the Terminators started off very badly, the last two stands (Death Warden with Sorcerer Lord, Death Warden with Chaos Champion) just wouldn't bleeping die due to their 4+/4+/6+ saves, and once Fester had arrived they ran around causing havoc.
The Plague Tower again made a lot of shots that would have been impossible with a 15cm range due to LoF or range, but taking out the Warlock and breaking the Guardians at the same time was just amazing.
The Fester Titans did well if sacrificially, making good use of the AT5+ part of the Decay Cannon compared to the lack of AT firepower on the EpicUK Plaguehound Titans.


Overall feedback:
The Terminators as the Uncle Fester delivery system makes for a pretty swingy list that wins big or loses big, although the robustness of the rest of the force goes a long way towards keeping things going if the Terminator arrival goes wrong. Oh so wrong...

By rights, Blip should have won game two and would have if it hadn't been for the failed activation on the Aspect Host, although he compounded the issue by focusing on the broken BTS and not spotting that he'd set himself up for my clipping assault. I'd also been concentrating a fair amount on whittling down any supporting formations to try and keep the Warlock isolated to stop it simply sweeping through everything nearby.

Although two big victories isn't the best sign for force balance, it's a small sample size and I've got very good with EpicUK Death Guard over the last 2-3 years, especially when it comes to Disrupt Barrage weapons. It feels about right but I'd also be interested in hearing from Blip on that second game.


I'm not likely to get any normal test games in in the near future due to needing to test some siege rules, but something I'd like to try is Terminators supported by/supporting Plague Zombies so that they come in close together, the Terminators do an Engage and end within 15cm of a second formation, then retain and engage that formation with the Zombies so that the Terminators get their massed Firefight supporting fire. Maybe even with the GUC as well.

Edited for a bunch of auto-correct fails...

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Last edited by IJW Wartrader on Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:23 am 
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Great write up. I'll add some thoughts later, but on the whole I think the list seems pretty reasonable - at least the build Ian played. I think I also have some photos.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:29 am 
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Some pics of the game up now on my Kernow Krieg post : http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... hp?t=30403

Just had chance to download the DG list. Will take a look and post some comments when I can.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:43 pm 
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So, I've had only two games against Ian's death guard (and one playing as DG for practice) and only the last one of which against this NetEA list. Both games against Ian have been with my BT eldar (epicuk).


On the whole I'd say it's a really tough list to fight and glad I've had my eldar when we've met, but certainly nothing in the list seems particularly OP. The all fearless makes things hard for an assaulting army, and the effect on reinforced armour units is significant. I wonder whether the addition of invulnerable on some is taking the toughness aspect a little too far(?) With so many chances of success, good dice can make the army feel bullet proof (as we discussed holofields can feel similar but statistically theyre only really the same as 4++) In Particular, while I think the plague tower stat revisions are ok on its own I have concerns about formations of 2 or 3 of them without a tailored army - 18dc, 4++, inv and fearless - really !? I have to say you get a lot of stats for 325pnts - I get that movement 20cm might be necessary to make them work as transports, but kinda slow is the theme of the list as should they really be faster than a shadowsword or warlord? After all the DG have fast transports available. Also Walker it seems a little like over kill - limiting them taking short cuts and hiding in cover easily at the same time (God knows they don't need to be any tougher!) seems fair given the movement increase. As I say, singlely I wasn't too concerned but we will have to try formations of them some time :-)

By the way Ian - I only have the epic UK list here at the moment but just checking - iirc you summoned the GUO 20cm from the terminators ? I thought summoning range was 5cm? Is this a DG thing or a NetEA thing ?

The ability to garrison 3/4 units (due to low movement) also seems like an unintended buff due to something that should be a general weakness. With so much shooty stuff it can make the list seem quite static rather than an advancing hoard. Should the units which can garrison be limited as it is for other armies? Contagion engines sitting out midfield on OW particularly seems a little strange...

Having said this, the blight drones sound like a great addition. By addressing the main weakness of the list could this be offset by limits to garrison ? It would be interesting to see what that does to how the army plays sometime.

Finaly, having fallen foul of the zombie horde before, mixing it with terminators sounds horrible! But once bitten (as it were) twice shy. Again, I'd like to give this a try some time. I look forward to our next game!


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:09 pm 
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I hadn't actually spotted the Invulnerable save on the NetEA Plague Towers! That said, it didn't come up in our game because it only got shot by AP weapons to put a blast marker on it. Towers don't have Walker, that must have been one of the Titans or the Defiler variants.

It looks like I did indeed make a mistake placing the GUC, I though they got placed in coherency of a non-summoned unit (so 20cm for a DC4 WE) but it does indeed say 5cm. Which means I got robbed back at the Winter Warmer in Bristol last year when someone did that against me with a Lord of Change landing 15cm away... On the other hand I forgot about the Chaos Spawn having d3 Extra Attacks in close combat against your Warlock.

As I've mentioned a few times up-thread, I share your concerns about paired Plague Towers in a formation, even at 650pt instead of 600pt. In LatD it seems to be less of an issue due to the force have Strategy 2 but in a Strategy 4 list they get that bit nastier. On the other hand a Phantom's Pulsar can shred a PT surprisingly easily in a single volley.

Garrisoning - outside of Eldar there are few limits on the number of formations garrisoning, other than some formations having to be bought with transports, although loyalist Space Marines are allowed to give up their Rhinos. For example almost all the CSM lists have transports that have to be bought as extras, as do a lot of IG infantry formations, Ork Warbands etc. It's a particularly attractive option with Death Guard because they're so much tougher than Rhinos, the Rhinos aren't Fearless and they can't March to make long-distance advances anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:39 am 
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Sorry, my mistake on the walker ( trying to do this on my phone.)

Not to worry about the GUO - didn't make any difference any way and I'm sure I forgot a load of stuff !

As you say, I didn't even bother going after even one PT on its own (or at least I would have had the warlock been freed up from killing the BTS but they JUST WOULD NOT DIE! :-) ) 2 of them would be a nightmare even with the warlock.


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