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Death Guard v0.2

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:31 am 
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Just remembered another one - Vindicator points cost.

The DG 0.2 Vindicators are 50pt each in the Armoured Company, matching the SM cost but without replacing ATSKNF with Fearless.
As add-ons in the other Chaos lists they're 35pt each while Predators are (universally?) 50pt whether in a formation or as an add-on.
In the Iron Warriors 3.0 list the Vindicator formation is 250pt for 6 (41.67pt each).


Proposal - make DG Vindicators 40pt each in the Armoured Company.

50pt is inconsistent with the Chaos lists that I'm aware of and is a hard sell as Chaos Predators are almost always a better option for the same price - faster with roughly equivalent shooting against INF, slightly worse but longer ranged shooting against AV and substantially better shooting against any mixed formation. For the moment I'm ignoring the current discussions about changes to the Demolisher Cannon... ;)

35pt would presumably be too cheap an activation at 140pt for four and would also make a six-strong formation 40pt cheaper than the equivalent core Iron Warriors formation.

40pt each does give a new low of 160pt for a Death Guard activation, however this is only 15pt cheaper than the Plague Zombies.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:03 am 
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atension wrote:
All other chaos lists that have terminators allow for the addition of extra terminators to the terminator formation under the upgrades section. In Steve's' first post the DG retinues it says "upgrades = all". I just left it that way. Could be an oversight I don't know, is there fluff to support the addition of terminators to DG units? If people are opposed or think it wasn't intended I have no issue removing it.
I'm fairly certain it's intentional that the DG Terminators can't have extras and are limited to just 4. It's to counterbalance them being fearless and in all the 4 Epic-UK god specific variant lists the fearless Terminators are 4 only with no upgrades allowed.


I took a look over the list as Mark has been playing it and I've been working on cleaning up some Death Guard models recently. It generally looks good (I particularly like the spacecraft and the ability to add 3 chaos spawn) and I'd like to try it some time. I wanted to offer some feedback and minor typos to fix.

50 points for a Vindicator does seem steep, particularly as they only move 20cm here so are even less likely to get in range than normal. I'd suggest either a points drop, or removing them from the core choices in the vehicle formation and having them be a 35 point add on as in the BL list.

The Terminators entry mention they can have a 'Lord of Decay' upgrade but this isn't listed in the upgrades or given stats. I guess this is the Warlord upgrade? It also says they can have a Nurgle Dreadnought but there's no cost or stats for one so I assume it should refer to a Chaos Dreadnought as normal?

All other CSM supreme commanders have a MW attack as well as their command abilities. As written the DG supreme replaces the DG lord and doesn't have a weapon but I imagine this is a mistake. Change the text to say the DG supreme has supreme commander AND a Man Reaper?

There's no cost listed for the Walker Horde formation?

Have you considered adopting the Epic-UK stats for the Net-EA Plaguebearers? (both here and in the Black Legion list). They had their CC and FF reduced by 1 as they were felt to be too good and to focus them on being tough but not so good at everything.

The Fester Titan is completely identical in stats and cost to the Plaguehound Titan in the Epic-UK DG list. Why not use the same name? Plaguehound makes it more obvious what sort of titan it is too if someone sees it written in an army list.

I like the Plagueship rules, it seems characterful. It's ability to create 3 new units does seem pretty powerful and useful for 175 though, even if they're only small units of zombies. Maybe it should have slow and steady?

Maybe you could add a Plague Drones unit to the list? They're basically Plague Bearers riding on giant daemon flies. The WE, TS and EC lists all have a new daemon unit added and it could be nice to have one for Nurgle and to have stats for them? There's no models but people could convert some, shouldn't be too difficult with some greenstuff and wings from somewhere. I'd make them jump infantry Plague Bearers with 20-25cm move (no infiltrate), maybe 2 summoning points to summon to balance them.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:14 am 
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Fester Titans have AT on one of the guns, Plaguehounds don't have any AT at all apart from the barrage.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:07 am 
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Plague Drones already have (untested) stats in the Daemon World List

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:32 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
Fester Titans have AT on one of the guns, Plaguehounds don't have any AT at all apart from the barrage.

Ah, thanks. They're very similar and I missed that.


I've spotted some errors in the Armyforge list - Contagion Engines should cost 350 per Steve's list on the 1st page, plus the Plague Towers on their own should be 325. There shouldn't be an option to take additional Terminators either.

What should the fire arcs be for the Repugnant and Plaguelord Titans weapons? I'm thinking taking one but they're not listed.

I'll be taking a 4k Death Guard list for a spin in a game on Tuesday. I'm finding it hard fitting enough activations in though; the list I might take only has 10 plus the spaceship, which seems in-advisably low.

Quote:
BLIGHT DRONES AV
Speed 35cm
Armour 4+ CC 6+ FF 4+
Maw Cannon 30cm AP3+/AT5+ Ignore Cover
Reaper Autocannon 30cm AP5+/AT6+
Notes: Invulnerable Save, Fearless, Skimmer

Looks like a typo? Reaper Autocannons are normally AP4+/AT6+.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:24 pm 
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I think the Armyforge stuff is based on atension's PDF, which appears to have the wrong points cost for the Contagion Engines/Contagion Towers, maybe because they cost 325pt in the EpicUK version.

The Plague Towers have been changed to 300pt in the most recent LatD list, the PDF and Armyforge were based on that and we're waiting on feedback from Steve on which cost he wants to go with.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:50 pm 
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Just waiting on Steve' update before I do the next round of changes to the .pdf.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:35 am 
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I'll let Mark write up the battle report but I used the DG in a game today. I had a low activation army that struggled against large amounts of 4+ reinforced armour, but it was good to try them in game.

I much prefer Plague Towers with 20cm move. 325 for individual ones would be best, they're quite good now and 300 seems too cheap. 300 for upgrade ones should maybe be fine though.

The Plagueship is powerful and could do with toning down. Either give it slow and steady, cost it higher, or have it generate one large unit of plague zombies under the middle template, not 3 new formations worth.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:40 am 
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Will update armyforge this week, after steve confirms point costs etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:37 pm 
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New report here, vs Feral Ork:
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=29451

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:04 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Will update armyforge this week, after steve confirms point costs etc.

Will get on this as soon as I can

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:59 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
I much prefer Plague Towers with 20cm move. 325 for individual ones would be best, they're quite good now and 300 seems too cheap. 300 for upgrade ones should maybe be fine though.

The Plagueship is powerful and could do with toning down. Either give it slow and steady, cost it higher, or have it generate one large unit of plague zombies under the middle template, not 3 new formations worth.


Agreed with this. Plague Towers seem a little more viable at move 20cm, though Plague ship seems too powerful.

The Plagueship is 175, same cost as Plague Zombies in L&D list, and yet it generates more zombies on average (3D6+6 compared to 2D6+3), which also arrive with no blast markers on them and in 3 separate formations, just after the area is hit with 3 massive disrupt barrage templates! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:36 pm 
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Markconz wrote:
GlynG wrote:
I much prefer Plague Towers with 20cm move. 325 for individual ones would be best, they're quite good now and 300 seems too cheap. 300 for upgrade ones should maybe be fine though.

The Plagueship is powerful and could do with toning down. Either give it slow and steady, cost it higher, or have it generate one large unit of plague zombies under the middle template, not 3 new formations worth.


Agreed with this. Plague Towers seem a little more viable at move 20cm, though Plague ship seems too powerful.

The Plagueship is 175, same cost as Plague Zombies in L&D list, and yet it generates more zombies on average (3D6+6 compared to 2D6+3), which also arrive with no blast markers on them and in 3 separate formations, just after the area is hit with 3 massive disrupt barrage templates! :)


Can't say I really disagree with the tower and plague ship points, however as GlynG mention (and I have found also) its hard to get a good activation count with this list. Seems like increasing the cost of the key units would make this problem even worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:23 pm 
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Yes low activation count is a challenge I've experienced too.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:57 am 
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For reference, my EpicUK DG lists tend to be 7-9 activations at 3k. This looks to be similar.

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