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Death Guard 3.x

 Post subject: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Hi Everyone

Please find latest copy of the Death Guard that I have put together

Much of Hena's work has remained and I merely concentrated more on the look and feel of the list to encourage:

1. More competitive play with some cheaper formations
2. Daemon Summoning to make more of an appearance

Points are not static and may/will be changed after some testing. In fact I will review it tomorrow after I get some sleep.

Hena was adamant that 250 for his main retinue was correct. The one I propose is weaker yet more expensive. Just a thought to keep in mind while also considering point reductions elsewhere (Termies and Havocs went through a change of sorts).

Plague Reaper etc will also be reviewed tomorrow.

Let me know what you think of this draft - especially in the way it looks and how you think it will play.

Please don't bother printing it out yet though, I am pretty sure tomorrow will mean some changes somewhere :)



Cheera all

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Last edited by frogbear on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Hi man!

A few things I noted.

1) The transport upgrade is only three vehicles. As it stands now you can't transport a retinue with a havoc upgrade, as that would require 4 transport vehicles.

2) Beasts of nurgle lacks a summoning points cost in their description notes.

3) The summoning rules say a greater deamon takes 7 summoning points while the units notes for the GUO says 8 pts. The GUO also lacks demonic focus (see point 4 below).

4) You have not included the new proposed summoning rules by Steve54. Like giving the sacrify the champion (curate) option, lowered lesser deamon points cost etc. Was this an omission or don't you want them?

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Hi Borka

Thanks for the keen eye. I will get onto all of those

In regards to the new summoning rules, are they official now? If so i will include them in all 3 chaos lists....

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:24 pm 
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I don't know i think they're still only development :)


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:01 am 
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Well after a night of sleep and another review with some help from feedback (Thanks Borka), I have loaded up V3.1 in the first post.

Changes:
- Repriced DG Retinue
- Redesigned Daemon Engine Support Options
- Repriced Plague Marine Upgrade
- Reworked Transport options
- Moved DG Land Raider CC to 6+
- Moved DG Predator CC to 6+
- Moved DG Rhino CC to 6+
- Summon Points added to Beast of Nurgle
- Summon Point fixed on Great Unclean One

--> New summoning rules (as per Steve54) are being reviewed presently. If they become official there will be no objection to adding them to this list so please feel free to play test the new summoning rules with this list.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:13 am 
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Playtest rules for daemon summoning:

DAEMON SUMMONING
The basic summoning mechanic remains the same
- Daemonic Pact - stay at 25pts. For each Daemonic Pact purchased add 1 lesser daemon to the daemon pool. Extra lesser Daemons can be purchased as normal.
- Icon Bearer - reduced to 25pts
- Champion- stays at 50pts. The Champion augments summoning as before, in additon instead of augmenting the summoning of lesser daemons the Champion may be Sacrificed. If the unit is Sacrificed it uses its full possible 6 summoning points (in combination with a Daemonic Pact) to summon a Greater Daemon, the Greater Daemon is placed within 10cm of the Champion and the Champion unit is then permanently removed.
WHY The pact change makes using lesser daemons cheaper, the changes to the Champion make it automatic to summon a GD (via sacrifice) in a fluffy manner.

- Lesser Daemons - all drop to 15pts
WHY To make daemon use cheaper

- Greater Daemons - drop to 50pts
- gain daemonic focus in notes
WHY With the changes in summoning reduces cost of GD+kit to summon it to 125pts, having auto-focus stops need for extra expense of icon

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:51 am 
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Took the list for a 4000 point run last night.

The list was
Death Guard + Rhinos
Death Guard + Rhinos
Death Guard + Havoks + Plague Marines, + Curate + Plague Crow
5x Death Guard Terminators + Daemon Prince
Plague Zombies
4 x Land Raiders
3 x Contagion Towers
1 x Plague Tower
1 x Plague Reaper
Hellblades
Hellblades
Hellblades

Lesser daemons x7 (pool of 10 due to 3x Death Guard retinues)
Greater Daemon x1

I came up against a Steel Legion force.

Set up was initially corners however I decided to make it fairer and make it a standard cross table set up.

We got to turn 3 and the score was Death Guard 2 (BTS and T&H) vs Steel Legion 1 (Blitz)

If it had continued it could have gone to a draw or Death Guard could have grabbed Blitz to make it a 3-1 win (would have depended on BM removal and rally attempts on the Steel Legion side.

Sorry I do not have a battle report for this one however some observations:

- The Plague of Flies EA+1 (15cm): May look to remove this as unnessesary and probably a little overboard (on Daemon Prince at least)
- Happy with the Death Guard troops. Good save yet subject to break tests quite easily (base 6 formation - need to summon to prevent this a little
- Daemon use: with this army it was useful for one unit that bunkered down and then slowly moved forward. The extra minis were used and eventually this 'monster' formation was threatening the blitz after FF assaulting 3 units together merely with the Greater Daemon. For other units, they were too busy using Rhinos to make use of the Daemonic pacts.

That is it for now I guess.


Happy to hear thoughts on the list

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:02 pm 
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love the changes! especially giving all the death guard retinue demonic pact.
the free lesser demon, i'm assuming that is only for the retinue and not the heavy retinue?
the beasts of nurgle don't seem worth taking. any chance of them getting first strike or infiltrate? as they are now i don't see why you would pick one over the plague bearer.
i also don't see the point in paying for the plague marines over the death guard. sure they get 3+ cc and fearless, but they lose the shooting attack. this is selfish on my part (since i have a ton of them from the previous list) but any chance we could do a one for one swap? so i could take an entire formation of plague marines?
also the great unclean one seems vastly underwhelming when compared to the other greater demons. a god with no macro weapon attack?
thanks for the new list, way more fun to play.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:10 am 
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Hi mnb

Thanks for looking. Let's start;
mnb wrote:
love the changes! especially giving all the death guard retinue demonic pact.
the free lesser demon, i'm assuming that is only for the retinue and not the heavy retinue?

Only for the DG retinue :)

Quote:
the beasts of nurgle don't seem worth taking. any chance of them getting first strike or infiltrate? as they are now i don't see why you would pick one over the plague bearer.

I am guided here by the daemon list that exists. If they want to change the stats then I would be happy to comply. I included them for the sake of inclusion. If required I could easily just take them out. But Father Nurgle loves it's doggies...

Quote:
i also don't see the point in paying for the plague marines over the death guard. sure they get 3+ cc and fearless, but they lose the shooting attack. this is selfish on my part (since i have a ton of them from the previous list) but any chance we could do a one for one swap? so i could take an entire formation of plague marines?

I will considder it however having 3 fearless units to somewhat deny the opponent Victory Points or objectives can be quite nasty. I use tyhem in a denial aspect myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:13 am 
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Quote:
also the great unclean one seems vastly underwhelming when compared to the other greater demons. a god with no macro weapon attack?


Oh he was the start in my last game! FF everyone and as part of a huge unit which was summoning, and he himself adding 4 extra size, I was getting 1-2 points before any combat started! It is something to consider however I am guided by not only the Daemon list in this area, but also by the LatD list - they all need the same.

Quote:
thanks for the new list, way more fun to play.

And this is why I bother. Great to hear I have made a difference ;)

Regards...

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Hi I like the direction you have taken this list, but just wondering a few things. First what are the reasons for altering the Helltalon stats and the points cost of both Helltalons and Hellblades. Are you intending to have the fickle masters rule and the Plague Tower has a transport option but nothing to put in it (or can they be added to a formation). Also it would be nice to upgrade a retinue to all Plague Marines.

[quote][/quote]

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:48 am 
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Hi CAA

Thanks for taking the time to read the list. I am glad that you like it.

Let me help with some of your questions:
Quote:
First what are the reasons for altering the Helltalon stats and the points cost of both Helltalons and Hellblades.

These should be the same as Black Legion standard. If they are not it is merely an error due to the initial list not be updated with the rules reviews on these. I will get that changed.

Quote:
Are you intending to have the fickle masters rule

What is this?

Quote:
...and the Plague Tower has a transport option but nothing to put in it (or can they be added to a formation).

The transport option is there for any list (LatD) however you are free to place another formation in a War Engine if you wish. There wsas a discussion on it recently (War Engines as transports). What formations were you looking at? I am curious because I have made Rhinos quite an easy decision to include.

Quote:
Also it would be nice to upgrade a retinue to all Plague Marines.

:) This is the 2nd person asking. What if I change the Plague Marine upgrade to be +25 points for every 3 Death Guard upgraded rather than just allowing 3? Would that work?

Let me know your thoughts on the above

Regards

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:11 pm 
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that rule for the plague marine upgrade would be fine with me. though it does seem odd to pay more for them. seems like an even swap would be fine, giving up shooting attack for fearless.
also i think the fickle masters rule is on the strategy roll, 1 means d3 less demons in pool and 6 means d3 more.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:56 pm 
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On the point of the Plague Marine upgrade, as fearless is so useful in many ways I think paying for it points wise is a sensible option even if you are losing a shooting attack. The fickle masters rule is called favour of the gods in the epic uk chaos codex sorry about that, mnb is spot on. Perhaps the Plague Tower can be a transport upgrade like the old codex.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 3.x
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:30 am 
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plague tower as an upgrade might be alright, though i used it twice now as a transport and i thought it was fine as is.
i realize a lot of people like fearless, but it is only useful if your broken or on hack downs. in other words, once you got your butt kicked. so i have never been a fan. i would rather something that might prevent the butt kicking in the first place... like a shooting attack. that is why i think it is an even trade for the plague marines. but 50 points for the formation is not that much, i guess.
also i just noticed you do not have the stats for zombies in the army list.


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