Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 60 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

[Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list

 Post subject: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:36 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:32 pm
Posts: 2450
Location: Cardiff, wales
V2.4 up.

following Apoc's request, added formations and options for small AV demon engines.
The formations are based off frogbear's khornate engines, but bigger, with more options and not fearless.
I've also given them all 'walker' as it's part of the list theme. I think, between the options and the bound demons, you can represent most types of demon engine.

dropped the thrice damned engine to 900 points.

some general housekeeping with rules, grammar and names also.

V2. up. added: chaos androids formation, transport to the Thrice Damned engine (the big un)
INITIATIVE changed to 2+. Added a stat bonus of Initiative 1+ to the Undivided bound demon.

V2.2 up - added soulgrinders and a mammoth demon engine. tweaked a few point costs.

V2.1 up. Changes, everything is now formatted nicely, you can thank Ulrik for that.

Plauge Mortar got renamed and heavily nerfed, Castigator cannon got upgraded to a twin linked version (4 shots, not 3)
Beam Of Power got Renamed to Beam of Light and upgraded to MW3+,
All Infernal weaponry was then repriced to 150 pts, and the cost folded into the Demon Engines.

Tweaked the Great Spawn stats a little, and reduced the formation size to only one. This is more thematic and makes the critical work more smoothly.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Since I posted the guide to list writiing, thought I'd better follow it here.
Tiny-Tim has given permission.

Lost and the Damned Demon Engine Calvacade


1. THE MISSION

THEME: A monstrous horde of mid sized War Engines showing Chaos in all of it’s warped glory

PREDECCESORS: based off the Stigmatus Covenent Cultist list v 3.1

DIFFERENCES: the existing list is currently back under development to try and tidy it up a bit. One of the successor lists suggested has been a war engine list.
This is NOT a traitor titan legion list. The comparison is like between Chaos Marines and the Lost and the Damned factions themselves.
This is NOT a traitor guard list. This is an force that has been outside of the imperium for millenia. Like most mixed Chaos forces, it’s an ill disciplined rabble welded together (perhaps literally) by a charismatic unaligned leader.
As a DC 3-6 War engine list there are some parrellels to IG Superheavy lists, possibly Tyranid Bio Titans too.

SUPPLEMENT? None as yet. Possibly Badab war? Possibly the 30k era supplement? Possibly Inquisition? Vauge theme currently is a Dark Magos or equivilent mustering his forces and calling in favours from old ‘friends’.

FOCUS: The war engines are the key focus. Support formations, demons ect will need to justify their existence in the list.

COMMITMENT: not high, I’m afraid. I love the concept, and will do my best to collect and convert my way to a decent army. However, I will be unlikely to be able to play test for another 12 months. Not to mention having two jobs.


2. OBJECTIVES

STRUCTURE: War Engine formations as core, all else support. Nothing or very little in the way of allies. Small formations of troops, limited amount of demons. A mix of factions to be heavily encoruaged.
Roles for Support formations to consider – Anti air (chaos Alter?), scout screen

WEAKNESSES: Cannot hold ground as effectively as normal list. Resiliant, but firepower drops off much faster then a titan list. Once you start losing, it may be difficult to come back. Faction hatreds will make fighting as a tight bunch difficult.
War engine lists are typically slow, but that’s not the case here.

PLAYSTYLE: Player has to think about the different tools available, and use them carefully. Emphasis should be upon movement and spending your limited resources carefully. It’s not an attrition list.
ICONIC UNITS: Lord of Battles, Plauge Tower, Slaaneshi Scout Titans (Questor & Subjegator), Deathwheel

EXPERIMENTAL UNITS: Warp Palace (or greater spire), Brass Scorpians (Greater and lesser)

OPTIONAL EXTRAS: Harbinger bomber, Ravager titan (for a undivided BTS), Big mutants, cultists, Chaos Alter, Chaos Spawn, Chaos Hounds

OPTIONAL NEW UNITS: Terrawyrm (Dark Mechanicus burrowing unit, tunneler, transport?), Giant Spawn (Slow, regenerates)

DESIGN GUIDELINES:
Demon Engines first.
No treading on Traitor Titan Legion list territorty.
Leave the cult AV options for faction lists and the mass cultist list.

SUPPLEMENT EFFECTS? No supplement nominated yet. It would help focus the list further though.

TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT:
This is NOT a traitor titan legion list
This is NOT a traitor guard list.
This is not a mutant and cultist horde.
As a DC 3-6 War engine list there are some parrellels to IG Superheavy lists, possibly Tyranid Bio Titans too.


Attachments:
Stygian List 2.4.pdf [46.18 KiB]
Downloaded 386 times


Last edited by madd0ct0r on Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:51 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 2:55 pm
Posts: 606
aaaaah, *.doc. Off to google docs.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:16 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Just had a quick look.

I feel that with the pressure to take the bigger items, you could come down on price on the following:

Harbinger Bomber (even as low as 400 points)
Defilers (I would come down to 225 points to start and then if too good, go back to 250 points)

To keep the 25 point theme, I see no issue in forcing the costs of
- 25 points per 3 Chaos Hounds
- 25 points per Big Mutants
Seeing as you are restricted to buying a Calvacade for every Support, there should be no issue (IMO) with all the above changes. The Chaos Hounds is the only increase in standard cost, however this is Epic, better to have it like that than have such micro-management.

Question: Wings of Change allow me to have 3 planes or is it an either/or situation?

Hatred Rule: Why not just adopt the standard 'Factions' rule?

Loyalty amongst Friends does not sit well with me for a Chaos List. Would you consider 'Betrayed!' or something else? - whatever you choose, for the 3 out of 5 of them this is a distinct disadvantage and for the other 2 it is a slight disadvantage (weakness that an opponent can exploit). I would not have the rule myself, however if you do insist on keeping it (and making it even harder for these guys to rally due to the extra -1 on top of the base -2), I would again give the Warp Palace and Plague Tower a 25 point discount. Again, I would prefer to take the rule out altogether however as I hate forced moves - as I am sure do most players of strategy games. Look at the World Eaters rule for an idea on a restriction without the forced move.

Hope all the above helps.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Last edited by frogbear on Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:42 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Terrawrym at 325 points, DC 6, 3x75cm MW, RA + IS, Fearless, Hellblades, Transport 12, and the ability to garrison and start on Overwatch is too cheap for me.

I do not care that it cannot move. Effectively you are preventing Blitz and T&H objectives for a very little cost.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:50 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
madd0ct0r wrote:
EXPERIMENTAL UNITS: ..... Brass Scorpians (Greater and lesser)

Where did all the Brass go?

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:22 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:15 am
Posts: 2463
Location: Australia
I do like to read a good fanlist.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:29 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:42 pm
Posts: 3305
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
What about the other Daemon engines?

Cauldron of blood etc

Cheers

James


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:15 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:04 pm
Posts: 5500
Location: UK
Critical on the Giant Spawn sounds fun. Decimator/plaguereaper would seem to fit in with this size of WE?

I like the idea of a daemon engine list, although my personal preference would be for one based on formations of smaller engines, with the larger as support.

_________________
AFK with real life, still checking PMs


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:17 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4496
Location: North Yorkshire
My only slight problem with the list is that I would probably max out on subjugators and defilers.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:40 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9609
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Love the concept. Good luck on this project.

madd0ct0r wrote:
EXPERIMENTAL UNITS: Warp Palace (or greater spire)

I have an objection to these being used as general, Tzeentchian daemon engines.

The Warp Palace and Greater Spire (and really the Silver Towers) are Thousand Sons-specific. They are literally buildings from Prospero that were transferred to the Planet of Sorcerers. According to the background, they are all under the control of the Legion. And, of course, they aren't actually daemon engines. They are crewed by TSons sorcerers rather than being possessed.

I started a long thread discussing Non-Silver Tower Tzeentch Daemon Engines about a year ago. There are some good ideas in there that I'd love to see developed.

==

Edit: Incidentally, an argument similar to the Silver Tower point above would exist for not including Slaanesh Knights/titans. They were from a specific source. Plus, if you're making a WE daemon engine list, that's ripe for taking development in a pretty different direction.

After skimming the list...

The core formations are not large enough to cause the normal activation-related and are-coverage problems associated with a titan-centered list. You could easily run 10+ activations of decent-sized WEs. I think it will miss on your intended design concept.

The Tzeentch aircraft formation is odd. The inclusion of the bomber means there is no intercept. That might be fine for a ground attack formation but there's no interception and very little AA in the list.

Loyalty Amongst Friends: I understand there is definitely going to be a need to hinder an all-Fearless WE list, but I think this rule will be extremely problematic. In general, forcing an action that is normally under player control is very challenging mechanically. It also raises questions about a sense of fairness.

Terrawyrm - IIRC, there's some sort of tunneling WE in a chaos squat list that frogbear was developing. If it's been done, you should probably reference it. No sense in re-inventing the wheel.


Last edited by nealhunt on Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:05 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:57 pm
Posts: 516
Location: Edmonton,AB,Canada
I thought this list would be like Apocolocyntosis said , groups of small (AV's) supported by the big ones(WE's), I like that idea. but good luck either way, I got almost the entire range of old choas DE's so Ill be watching this thread closely.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:32 pm
Posts: 2450
Location: Cardiff, wales
frogbear wrote:

Question: Wings of Change allow me to have 3 planes or is it an either/or situation?

Hatred Rule: Why not just adopt the standard 'Factions' rule?

Loyalty amongst Friends does not sit well with me for a Chaos List. Would you consider 'Betrayed!' or something else? - whatever you choose, for the 3 out of 5 of them this is a distinct disadvantage and for the other 2 it is a slight disadvantage (weakness that an opponent can exploit). I would not have the rule myself, however if you do insist on keeping it (and making it even harder for these guys to rally due to the extra -1 on top of the base -2), I would again give the Warp Palace and Plague Tower a 25 point discount. Again, I would prefer to take the rule out altogether however as I hate forced moves - as I am sure do most players of strategy games. Look at the World Eaters rule for an idea on a restriction without the forced move.


all prices are nominal stabs in the dark at the moment.

Wings of change is for the set, as a single formation. so until the firelord is dead, no intercepting.

Hatred: I didn't use the standard rule? i used the one in the compedium. is there a newer wording?

Loyalty amongst friends: is intended to be a disadvantage to negate the boredom of having an all fearless list.

frogbear wrote:
Terrawrym at 325 points, DC 6, 3x75cm MW, RA + IS, Fearless, Hellblades, Transport 12, and the ability to garrison and start on Overwatch is too cheap for me.

I do not care that it cannot move. Effectively you are preventing Blitz and T&H objectives for a very little cost.


it's a tunneler - so it has to tunnel in. could use free planetfall if it's clearer.

frogbear wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:
EXPERIMENTAL UNITS: ..... Brass Scorpians (Greater and lesser)

Where did all the Brass go?


forgot to print the list with their prices in, so they got left out. simple as that

wargame_insomniac wrote:
What about the other Daemon engines?

Cauldron of blood etc

Cheers

James


stats anywhere?

Apocolocyntosis wrote:
Critical on the Giant Spawn sounds fun. Decimator/plaguereaper would seem to fit in with this size of WE?

I like the idea of a daemon engine list, although my personal preference would be for one based on formations of smaller engines, with the larger as support.


Looked at decimator, but had a vague desire to keep tanks out of the list. only the really weird stuff. it was supposed to be a home for the extremes of the latd list after all.

Lord Aaron wrote:
I thought this list would be like Apocolocyntosis said , groups of small (AV's) supported by the big ones(WE's), I like that idea. but good luck either way, I got almost the entire range of old choas DE's so Ill be watching this thread closely.


I wanted to keep the smaller stuff for the other lists. I basically started from the principle of OGBM or a titan list. It's also meant to be a chaos undivided list, and if you buy say, two small formations of av followed by a war engine, that's a lot of points, making harder to fit everything in.
nealhunt wrote:
Love the concept. Good luck on this project.

madd0ct0r wrote:
EXPERIMENTAL UNITS: Warp Palace (or greater spire)

I have an objection to these being used as general, Tzeentchian daemon engines.

Edit: Incidentally, an argument similar to the Silver Tower point above would exist for not including Slaanesh Knights/titans. They were from a specific source. Plus, if you're making a WE daemon engine list, that's ripe for taking development in a pretty different direction.

The core formations are not large enough to cause the normal activation-related and are-coverage problems associated with a titan-centered list. You could easily run 10+ activations of decent-sized WEs. I think it will miss on your intended design concept.

The Tzeentch aircraft formation is odd. The inclusion of the bomber means there is no intercept. That might be fine for a ground attack formation but there's no interception and very little AA in the list.

Loyalty Amongst Friends: I understand there is definitely going to be a need to hinder an all-Fearless WE list, but I think this rule will be extremely problematic. In general, forcing an action that is normally under player control is very challenging mechanically. It also raises questions about a sense of fairness.

Terrawyrm - IIRC, there's some sort of tunneling WE in a chaos squat list that frogbear was developing. If it's been done, you should probably reference it. No sense in re-inventing the wheel.


I knew the silver towers were prospero specific - but thought the warp palace wasn't?
didn't know that about the slaaneshi stuff, tell me more. especially about this new direction...

I looked at forcing 600pt formations as the standard, and while it made the list feel more like a titan list, it halved the diversity. these WE really really aren't as tough as titans, and it'd be much easier to cripple a big formation.

air support cannot intercept? intended. that's what the chaos alter is for. the fighters can intercept interceptors though?
it's not anything i have my heart set on though.

another big dislike for 'loyalty amongst friends'. I'll try again.

off to go and find frogbear's tunneller.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:51 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9609
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
nealhunt wrote:
I knew the silver towers were prospero specific - but thought the warp palace wasn't?

In fairness, it's questionable. It's always been sort of a "big tower" but the original background fluff on it has had references to imprisoned daemons similar to daemon engine possession (and I'm pretty sure it counted as a Greater Daemon for the old SM/TL chaos force org).

Quote:
didn't know that about the slaaneshi stuff, tell me more.

House Devine was a knight household that fell to Chaos. Found this online, but I'm sure there's plenty more if you are interested in hunting it down:
Quote:
Molech - home of House Devine, original source of the Slaaneshi Daemon Knights and Scout Titans (WD190)

Battle of Molech. Three Titan Legions and over a hundred IG regiments and Knight households defend Molech against the Warmaster Horus and his armies. Knight of the ruling Household (Devine) seduced by Slaanesh during initial stages, and betray Imperial forces during the main Chaos assault. Only 1 in 100 Imperial soldiers survive the battle, the future Daemon Knights of Slaanesh daemonic war machines come from House Devine.


Quote:
especially about this new direction...

Mostly, I think it would be possible to go with the direction the GW studio is currently taking with daemon engines and appropriately scale it up for Epic. The Brass Scorpion was reinvented, along with some other Khorne engines and the Nurgle Blight Drone. They and all the released concept art for other daemon engines stick with some common themes that can probably be summed up as organic and articulated armor shapes. Obviously, Nurgle has the fly theme, which lends itself to that insectoid, articulated look of the Blight Drone, but like I said, all the concept art tends to nod in that direction.

Your Terrawyrm idea definitely fits in with that aesthetic and I think new engines and WEs could be invented that do so as well. You could have Nurgle land battleships that look like fat, armored slugs (a little Nurgle Beast retro feel, maybe). Tzeentch DEs that look like floating, prehistoric armored fish raining warp fire from high altitude like several of the suggestions in the thread I linked. Slaanesh DEs could be sleek, mechanical serpents with styling in keeping with the daemonette and Keeper insectoid claws or Steeds. And, of course, non-faction WE design is wide open.

That doesn't really help if you are looking primarily to using the old daemon engine models, but you don't seem to be leaning that direction.

Quote:
I looked at forcing 600pt formations as the standard, and while it made the list feel more like a titan list, it halved the diversity. these WE really really aren't as tough as titans, and it'd be much easier to cripple a big formation.

I think that weakness is probably good. Given the preponderance of fearless WEs this list will almost certainly end up with, they need an appropriate weakness. Your "lack of holding ground" and "lose firepower quickly" weaknesses would both seem to come from expensive, multi-WE formations. That's been an effective means of reducing the effectiveness of AMTL and Gargant lists.

I would probably aim for WE companies in the 500-800 point range as the core formations. That could be anything from a SHT company at 3/500 to a Lord of Battle pair at 2/800 or a single battle-titan-sized WE. You might even put Cultists/Acolytes in the core, with attached Altars. Something like 2-3 Altars and a coven, for instance.

Quote:
air support cannot intercept? intended. that's what the chaos alter is for. it's not anything i have my heart set on though.

Is that based on a desire to see lots of Altars in play? Or to enforce a generally weak AA defense as a characteristic?

Quote:
the fighters can intercept interceptors though?

Not really. They can technically fire at interceptors. However, since they will have completed their move before the interceptors come on board, the interceptors can just avoid their fire arcs and 15cm range.


Giant Spawn critical hit: Cool idea, but keep an eye on it. Criticals should never give the appearance of creating a benefit. A WE beaten down to 1 DC that suddenly splits into 4 decent units is questionable. I know with the extra BMs, they will almost certainly be broken, but that may not be enough.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:25 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:32 pm
Posts: 2450
Location: Cardiff, wales
hmmm, but if the list only deals with new fashion war engines (3-4 of which will be completely new to the universe) i predict gnashing of teeth from people with old models.

perhaps a little Chaos civil war is in order, between an Old Style Magos (who builds machines and binds demons) and a New Wave one (who sculpts ideas that demons wear)?


Spawn Critical will be tweaked to make number of minispawn match remaining DC.

The aircraft were for a couple of reasons.
1. I do like alters, they're the most free-form modelling opportunities and without demons there's no other need for them. (should probably drop the price actually)
2. Unless forced too, nobody would take firelords. There's so much fast firepower in the list already a prepping bomber has limited utility
3. Weak AA is the most unimaginative weakness a list can have. but the variety of war engines available means they need some difficulties. Or I could just strip all the models of fearless, via list specific special rule. might be easiest.

EDIT: Banelord, ravager and feral... are they khorne worshippers? GW website seems to suggest so, but they're in the Black Legion List like they're chaos undivided.

FURTHER EDIT: would people consider a special rule to replace 'loyalty amongst friends' that simply strips all of the demon engines of fearless? I'd get the carefull use of fragile resources I'm after, we murder loyalty which nobody really likes, and it's equally fair across all of the deamon engines.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:44 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:32 pm
Posts: 2450
Location: Cardiff, wales
EDIT: V0.2 up. nearly all suggested changes have been made, including forcing larger formations. This, coupled with the removal of 'fearless' should make the list a bit more restrained, although I'd still like it if a wider variety of stuff could get onto the table at once.

Ideas Explored but rejected:

Ordinatus list style - ie 2-3 basic chassiss, can add specific weapon for x amount, can bind in demon for y amount.
Reason rejected: made the demons engines feel too damn generic and similar

Brand new Demon engines in the new fashion -
reason rejected - lets get a list working for existing models first. (altough the current latd list does an admirable job)

SHT variants not included, as felt they'd make more sense in a pure traitor gaurd list.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 60 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net