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World Eaters 3.7 - List Reviewed and Released

 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:18 am 
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Page 1 has been updated with the following fixes:

- removed the error with the Spacecraft
- corrected the costings for the Chaos Navy
- corrected the stats for the Hell Talon

Regards.

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:54 pm 
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Played another game tonight and got to take some of the formations that I would not otherwise take in a tournament list. I have to say that the game was quite fun using these units.

The army taken:

Berserkers + Rhinos
Bikers
Terminators + Daemon Prince
Bloodpack
Khorne Support Engines (Cannons of Khorne)
Khorne Support Engines (Doom Blasters)
Greater Brass Scorpions x2
Juggernauts
Hell Talons
Hellblades

The army they came up against:

Land Speeder
Thunderhawk
- Devastator,
- Assault + Chaplain
Thunderhawk
- Tactical
Tactical + Hunter
Tactical
Terminator
Whirlwind
Whirlwind

It was a tough game which saw each side desperately trying to close the game out by 3rd turn. This did not happen and with World Eaters winning the 4th turn initiative, allowed them to place the killing blows on the BTS and otherwise indestructable Terminators to finally win the game 2-1 (BTS + TSNP vs BTS). The final point actually came down to a final 5+ dice roll in which I rolled a 6 for victory.

Awesome game and awesome opponent. Thanks punkskum for an enjoyable and long (5 hour) game. We will do it again. :)

-------------------------

Greater Brass Scorpions - This was the first time I have had these get into Close range combat and they performed exceptionally. Currently they have Reinforced Armour and Invulnerable Save. This raised a question in my mind, however without a Void Shiled for protection, it most likley is a warranted addition.

Bikes - These were shot up before they did anything really

Juggers - These remained broken for the whole game pretty much

Terminators - These landed on the ground through a teleport only to meet huge resitance that saw them all dead within the first 5 minutes of showing themselves

Khorne Support Engines - They did OK in this game as I kept them on Overwatch and they pretty much defended my back line, They are purely glass hammers however - great effect but cannot really take a punch if they are to survive turn after turn (purely due to their numbers)

Aircraft - same old same old

Blood Rage (+1 to charge ability): Whilst this ability allowed some formations to complete a charge, it was as much as a curse as it was a blessing. Formations that were attempting tactical moves were invariably failing and either breaking and running for cover or removing BM to stay in the game. As punkskum saw tonight, it almost lost me the game with 4+ activations not being uncommon. I would suggest people play this rule before making their minds up to see how tragic this rule can be to otherwise well laid out plans. It was very fluffy however and suits the force very well - although nail-biting as hell :)

That's it for now. Hoping to take many varied forces in the future games to come

Cheers.....

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:19 pm 
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After playing a few games with the list, I thought I better start placing up some of the potential changes that I would be looking at for a review at the end of the year.

I want to be very clear that these are just proposals at this time and further games will see whether they are warranted or not.

Brass Scorpions: Allowing singles of these. Unsure on costings whether it will be
a. 1-3 @ 175 points each or
b. 1 for 200 and 2-3 at 175 points each. or
c. 1 for 200 and 2nd or 3rd extra for 150 points each


Lord of Battles
Is it warranted to have a formation of 2 for 800 points (50 point saving) in order to be able to take aircraft in a 3000 point battle.

Singly should they remain at 425 points or drop to 400 points?


Character upgrades may only be given to core units (not upgrades) within a retinue.
Is this a necessary rule. Is it OK for a Daemon Prince to also be a Keeper of Skulls?


Rhino Transports
Is it feasible to encourage the ground based operations and make Rhinos 25 points for the whole formation? This would only effect Berserkers who would see a 25 point saving. It removes the ability to garrison, however also makes it a viable option against choosing drop pods.
- Side effect here is that it could also encourage a cheaper Land Raider transport cost as they could replace Rhinos and I just tweak how it is purchased.

When considering the idea for the Rhinos and Land Raiders, Blood Rage also needs to be a factor in this decision as to win a strategic game, the 25-30cm move/charge could be a deterrent due to the extra -1 action to do anything other than a charge. Having Land Raiders Charge or fail an activation when you need them to move and shoot can be most problematic.

That is it as far as I can see. I will keep playing more games to keep testing out various builds to see how the above ideas fair with results from the current list.

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:13 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
in order to be able to take aircraft in a 3000 point battle.

Or a brass scorp, currently with 850pt dual LoB there is nothing else you can take from WE or Air. 800 for a pair also gives you the usual group cost reduction/reduced activation (like warhound pairs etc), wouldn't be many reasons to take as a pair apart from BTS, so dropping the cost probably wouldn't cause many problems?


Transport options are interesting. With regard to the +/-1 bloodthirsty/aggressive and transports, the limited tactical scope this imposes on fast moving units is already there, especially on units with infiltrator. Don't think it will be much more problematic than it is for other units. Land Raiders full of berserkers should be charging into combat anyway, so -1 if they choose to stand and sustain seems fair.

frogbear wrote:
That is it as far as I can see.

Give Blood slaughterers a useable role on the list? and maybe look at the slow firing dreadnaught.

49 stands of WE reinforcements sitting on my desk, red drybrushing done but no time to finish them (death by gold trim…) ???

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:33 pm 
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:
red drybrushing done but no time to finish them (death by gold trim…) ???


Oh I know that feeling ... :)

Quote:
Land Raiders full of berserkers should be charging into combat anyway, so -1 if they choose to stand and sustain seems fair

So is this in favour of a cheaper option for Land Raiders or against it?

Quote:
Give Blood slaughterers a useable role on the list?

Ah yes! Thanks for the reminder

Blood Slaughterers
Blood Slaughterers as a base formation - 5 or 6 units for ??? points (I will come back and fill this part in properly)

Quote:
and maybe look at the slow firing dreadnaught.

Ah yes.

World Eater Dreadnought
Removing the Slow firing aspect (different weapon fit out - not a dual CC role) and boost back to 50 points each. The reason for not having them with 2x MW is that it will encroach on the role of the Blood Slaughterer. Then again, it is all to go on the drawing board.

Thanks Apoc for the heads up :)

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:06 pm 
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This list will get another 3 games in an upcoming tournament here in Australia in about 3 weeks time.

After that, I will start to make a move on some of the other lists to get them ready for a review (if required) at the end of this year.

Just wondering whether there is anyone out there that has also tested the list or has further ideas for the list after the stuff discussed above.

Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:17 am 
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Today I took the World Eaters 3.6.3 to the Small Arms Tournament.

The list I took was as follows:

Dev Cruiser
- Berserkers + Dreadclaws
- Berserkers + Dreadclaws
- Chosen + Keeper of Skulls + Dreadclaws
Terminators + Daemon Prince
Terminators
World Eaters Banelord
Hellblades

3000 points
7-8 activations

In all games
- the Dev Cruiser came in on the 3rd turn
- I teleported Terminators (without the Daemon Prince) on the 2nd turn to harass the enemy
- Chosen dropped onto my own Blitz to guard it
- All other drops and teleports concentrated on taking the Blitz, T&H and BTS objectives

Game 1 - vs Orks*
World Eaters won this 2-0 (BTS + Blitz)

Game 2 - vs Eldar*
World Eaters won 3-1 (BTS+Blitz+T&H vs BTS)

*Both these players were pretty much encountering Spacecraft for the first time so were hazy at best on the drop rules.

Game 3 - Vs Tau (Dobbsy) : This was the finals table to decide the winner
Tau win 2-1 (Blitz+T&H vs Blitz)


So after playing on the finals table, the World Eaters drooped to third (on kill points - only 300 below 2nd place) for the tournament.

Thoughts
- As you would expect, the army is excellent in CC. While the Berserker retinues have numbers and the CC dice to hit, I still find they are broken after most combats (win or lose)
- Terminators were the stars pretty much breaking or wiping out any formation that they pin-point. Their saves really help them in their low numbers
- The army is very susceptible to Overwatch which Dobbsy was able to use in our last game.
- Overall I am happy with the force. Some items make me think about point values, however in the grander scheme of the force in its lack of other options, I am happy with where it is at present.
- More games needed to keep testing the level of CC potential vs points paid

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:44 am 
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Further thoughts towards the 2012 review:

I am still looking at the Rhino cost and determining whether it could come down for the Berserker Retinue. As it stands we have the following:

Marine
6 Marines + 3 Rhinos = 300 points
- Better SR, ATSKNF, Reasonable Shooting, Reasonable combat potential both CC and FF, Tactically sound, Sub 200 point units to increase activation count, can swap and change as required


Black Legion
8 Units + 4 Rhinos = 315 points
- Standard SR, Lord Character, Reasonable Shooting, Reasonable combat potential both CC and FF, Tactically sound, Sub 200 point units to increase activation count


Current World Eaters
8 Units + 4 Rhinos = 325 points
- Standard SR, Lord Character, Exceptional CC ability, 4x Fearless units, no shooting, sub standard FF, specialised rather than tactical, no sub 200 point formations in the list


No matter how I look at it, the ground-pounder World Eater is paying too much for what they have in comparrison to the other two established lists. Purely on the tactical frontage and the strictures of the list, they are losing out.

My proposal for the new year is looking to make the Rhino upgrade for the Berserker Retinue as +25 points rather than +50

So the comparrison that I am looking at is as follows:

Proposed World Eaters Retinue
8 Units + 4 Rhinos (as an upgrade choice) = 300 points
- Standard SR, Lord Character, Exceptional CC ability, 4x Fearless units, no shooting, sub standard FF, specialised rather than tactical, no sub 200 point formations in the list

Re: Blood Rage Rule -: This rule helps the army as much as it hinders it to win (as the last tournament would show), so it is a wash in my opinion as to it's benefit or hindrance.

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:32 am 
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Tacs are now 275 IIRC....


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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:23 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Tacs are now 275 IIRC....


Bloody hell!

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:51 am 
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Yeah I think the Tacs needed it though as they aren't necessarily desirable in comparison to other marine infantry, whereas the WEs are pretty much needed and usable in the force. I'm not sure it's just an easy straight up comparison when it comes to the above comparisons as they're totally different beasts and perform totally different roles in each list.


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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:12 am 
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That is the point. World Eaters need to gun it down the field. Take out one of the Rhinos and that whole formation is foot slogging it looking for an enemy to punch on with.

Do that to a tactical or black legion formation and they double and support from 45cm away. It seems pretty clear cut to me yet again that the World Eaters lose out in this respect.

When deciding whether (for the berserker formation) to pay for Rhinos (50 points) vs Dreadclaws (100 points), it is a no brainer for the defensive and strategic benefit - you would go the extra for the drop pods. If however you have the choice of Rhinos (+25 points) vs Dreadclaws (+100 points) the decision then becomes a thought process. The ground pounder force then becomes a viable battle tactic for this force.

Having played (I do not know how many) games now with the force, it is always going to be a drop force if I do not take active measures to make it a viable force on two main fronts. This is part of the solution and I am comfortable with its balance in comparison to other established lists.

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:00 am 
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After many months of deliberation and comparing, below are the updated proposed changes for the next update of the World Eaters:

Brass Scorpions:
These are to be changed to 1-3 @ 200 points each (as they are initiative 1+, I am fine with the 25 point increase on past thoughts)
- also error in armour needs to be corrected back to 5+ (from 4+)


Lord of Battles
These will be able to be purchased as at 1 for 425 points or 2 for 800 points


Character upgrades are able to be given to any unit, even upgrades.


Rhinos as a Transport Upgrade are to be removed. This will have the following flow on effect:

- World Eaters Berserker Retinue will gain optional Rhinos and be priced as 300 points for the base formation.
- Land Raiders now either replace Rhinos (Berserkers and Chosen) or add to the formation (Terminators): 125 points per two Land Raiders
- Dreadclaws are reworded to be 50 point upgrade for a Chosen Retinue or 75 point upgrade for a Berserker Retinue.


Blood Slaughterer pack to be added to the Khorne Assault Engines (five for 250 points). These still may be too expensive, however it is a good place to start with them and is not too different from where the Red Corsairs have them (they are too expensive in that list)
- Looking to remove Blood Slaughterer as a Walker upgrade as now it has it's place and the Dreadnought may be able to fit in there.


World Eater Dreadnought
** this is still to be decided on as I am not sure whether I want to adopt the Chaos Dread. To be continued... **


I will probably look to get the updated version of the list out after giving a chance for any feedback and once I make a final decision on the dread.

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:10 pm 
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Hey Frogbear. Sorry; either I'm being even more stupid than usual, or there are a few bugs in this list =P

The poor Daemon Prince - as the list stands, noone wants to be his friend?
Chosen - can they take only Rhinos, are they for free?
What about 5 or 7 man Terminator squads - they have to take an empty Land Raider??

I'll assume it only makes sense to take Daemonic Pact, Keeper of Chains and Keeper of Skulls once per formation?

Thanks in advance for any clarifications (o:

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 Post subject: Re: World Eaters 3.6.3 - List Reviewed and Released
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:01 am 
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Hi Parintachin

No worries. Here we go:

Parintachin wrote:
The poor Daemon Prince - as the list stands, noone wants to be his friend?

I certainly hope not! :) He is selectable as per the 'Favoured of Khorne' upgrade where you will also find the Blood Lord. Berzerkers, Terminators, Chosen and Possessed can take him.

Quote:
Chosen - can they take only Rhinos, are they for free?

They are a free optional choice for them to help justify pricing them at 200 points.

Quote:
What about 5 or 7 man Terminator squads - they have to take an empty Land Raider??

The upgrade for these is purchase enough to transport the formation. So you get 2 landraiders per 150 points. I guess if you have 5 Terminators, you have 6 LR which appears to be an oversight, however I see no reason not to teleport these bad boys in rather than face such a cost. Essentially the upgrade is there for completness sake, however I do not expect to see any World Eater force taking Terminators in Land Raiders. I may consider reviewing this oversight once the Marine costings are finalised (to gain parity of cost).

Quote:
I'll assume it only makes sense to take Daemonic Pact, Keeper of Chains and Keeper of Skulls once per formation?

Yeah. Rule WE2.1 (page 1) states that each upgrade may only be taken once

Quote:
Thanks in advance for any clarifications (o:

No, thank you dude for doing all that work. It is very much appreciated.

Cheers....

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