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Daemon Summoning - Another approach

 Post subject: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 7:02 am 
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Morgan Vening posted an idea under the Emperor's Children thread, and after clarifying some points, I think the idea of it has merit. Hence why I am bringing it to the forums.

The Basic Idea would be this:

You do not purchase Daemons, you purchase a Daemon Pool. So let's use this example:

20 Points = 1 Pool
40 Points = 2 Pool
60 Points = 3 Pool
80 Points = 4 Pool
100 Points = 5 Pool etc. etc.

As a permanent, Daemons count as taking the following allocations in a Daemon Pool:

- Lesser daemon - 1 Pool
- Greater daemon - 4 Pool

When turning up to a game, you do not just turn up with Daemons that you purchased, but rather all possible Daemons available to your army

When summoning, roll the dice as normal and attempt to summon Daemons:

- Lesser daemons - 1 Summoning Point
- Greater daemons - 8 Summoning Points

Now depending on what you Pool is and what you have summoned will dictate what is left in the pool for you. Example:

I have bought 5 Pool (100 points)
- I roll a total of 8 on 4D3.
- This allows me to summon either 1 G.Daemon or up to 8 L.Daemons.
- If I chose the G.Daemon (4 Pool in size), I am only ever allowed to summon 1 more pool of Daemon (a L.Daemon) untill the G.Daemon goes back and his 'Pool' is replenished. If he dies, the Pool is obviously lost.
- Pool is also depleted for each wound lost by a Greater Daemon when he does go back to the Summoning Pool

Code:
After having 5 Pool and bringing out a G.Daemon with the 8 Summoning points, my Pool is now 1. During the turn my G.Daemon is injured for 1 wound and in the end phase (as I have no Icon), he disapears back to the warp. His 1 wound deducts from the Pool so now I only have 4 Pool left to summon Daemons with. That will mean that I can only ever afford to get the G.Daemon out one more time if he gets wounded again (leaving me with no pool during the turn), or I have the choice of using L.Daemons instead.

If the G.Daemon was to be wounded again, and disappeared back to the Warp in the end phase, the Pool would then be 3 going into the next turn.


Now I know this adds another level of 'math' to the rules however the benefits are quite good:
1. You do not have to buy a Greater Daemon and hope to get him out
2. If your 'enhanced summoning' unit is destroyed before being used, you have not wasted points on a G.Daemon that cannot be used. You still have the 'Pool' to summon Daemons that you can afford.
3. Players can summon any type of Daemon they like depending on the need at the time (also effective for multi-cult forces) - it provides a 'tactical' choice within the game where previously there was none (only before the game)


I hope I have been clear on the above. It took me a few minutes to get my head around, but after I did, it makes a lot of sense and would promote the little used G.Daemon (and also L.Daemons to an extent) in such armies as C.Space Marine forces where they are currently rarely seen or extinct.

Opinions?


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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:01 pm 
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You realise point 3 is already true? You don't buy specific Lesser daemons, you buy generic and decide what type of daemon they are when summoned. You can summon lesser daemons as bloodletters from a khorne formation, then when they go back into the pool you can summon the same daemons as daemonettes from a slaanesh formation.

The same is true for greater daemons; you don't buy a bloodthirster, you buy a greater daemon that becomes a specific one when summoned.


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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Oh ok.

Well the main point was about not having to 'buy' a greater Daemon.

Anyone have any opinions on any of the above?


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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:01 am 
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So no thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:36 pm 
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If the summoning system is going to be modified, it needs a full overhaul rather than a bandaid.


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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:34 pm 
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I already proposed a full overhaul but nobody seems to want it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:47 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
I already proposed a full overhaul but nobody seems to want it. :)


OK. I will play along. What was it?


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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:02 pm 
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Had to dig it out from an older version of the Red Corsairs army list as i can't find the posting.

An other alternative for summoning Lesser Daemons could be that you summon
a) a fixed amount
b) a separate Daemon formation with a fixed number of Lesser Daemons
c) a separate Daemon formation with a random number of Lesser Daemons


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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:41 pm 
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Mechanically I have an issue with bringing on new formations in the middle of a turn. Adding a new, full activation at a point of opportunity would be very effective, probably to the point of seeming unfair to the opponent.

Stylistically, I don't care for adding independent daemon formations. They are supposed to be tethered to the belief of the chaos worshipers and unable to act independently for any substantial length of time (normally).

===

The solution I favored was returning to the original sacrifice system, but with appropriate changes to cost. It had a lot less moving parts than the current summoning system but the results were frequently overpowered. One advantage it had was the one requested - the option for greater daemons or lesser daemons without them being pre-set.


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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:48 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
Mechanically I have an issue with bringing on new formations in the middle of a turn. Adding a new, full activation at a point of opportunity would be very effective, probably to the point of seeming unfair to the opponent.


How is this different to Teleport other than in the middel of the turn? Or Planetfall where you can bring several un-activated formations in the middel of the turn.?
Expecially if you would make Summoning an action of its own?

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Well you can always assign an apropiate points value to Summoning/Daemons or another downside. Random number of units etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:19 pm 
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I'm with neal and hena. Summoning a new formation and activating it before the enemy gets any kind of chance to react is not going to be fair or fun, no matter how it is pointed.


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 Post subject: Re: Daemon Summoning - Another approach
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:30 pm 
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Always the option that Summoning is transfered to the beginning of the turn :)

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