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Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts

 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:35 pm 
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Just some initial thoughts that I am tossing out for comment.As I expand/add/edit the list I will update this post.

Epic Chaos Daemon army list

The army should be playable with the existing plastic and Warmaster metal Daemon miniatures. There will be one or two DIY projects in the list but the aim should be to allow any gamer to pick up miniatures from their local store and play this list.

The development process will aim at providing a tournament playable list but if this is not possible we will attempt to create a "fun" list that still aims to give a balanced game.

The objectives in the Daemon player's table half are Warp Rifts that are used to summon daemons. Controlling the objective stops the Daemon player from using it to spawn daemons. The player starts with a formation garrisoned next to each objective. Contested Warp Rifts still function.

Daemons can also be summoned via Teleportation anywhere on the table but there is a limit to the number of formations that can be deployed each turn. Perhaps the turn number is the number of formations that can be teleported at the beginning of the turn?

Formations retain BMs (with all of the penalties that entails) but when they break the are removed from the table and put into a Summoning Pool.

Daemon formations can purchase Chaos Icons that reduce the number of BMs that teleporting formations get when arriving. These could also act as Leaders to remove BMs. The effect of the icon being to maintain the presence of the daemons... the BMs being a destabilizing influence on the units.

Daemons are purchased in formations or as part of a generic Summoning Pool. Daemons can be summoned by Heralds to expand the formations as part of a Hold action.

Use the Warmaster Greater Daemons to represent the vast daemonic beings similar to the named Daemons from the 40K Codex and give them stats equivalent to Reaver Titans. The existing Epic Greater Daemons or the Warmaster Daemonic Characters can be used to represent "normal" Greater Daemons.

Players can buy Gifts of the Dark Gods to represent things like Orbital Bombardment or drop pods

Some units in the game will need to be presented in alternate formations that have additional/different abilities to allow the army to have abilities like artillery and AA.

Aircraft will be represented by high altitude Screamers and optionally 40K scale Screamers can be used as bombers and/or transport aircraft (the daemon has a warp rift in it that spawns daemons)

Players can use older Daemon Engines or create their own Daemonic Constructs. These will be AV sized units that will provide assault support or can be purchased with weapons to provide fire support.

No Hatred rules. The Daemonic forces have agreed to work together for the duration of the battle and have put aside their differences for the moment.




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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:49 pm 
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Use the Warmaster Greater Daemons to represent the named Daemons from the 40K Codex

Which runs specifically counter to one of Epic's core design principles... Epic does not include 'Special Characters'.

The existing Epic Greater Daemons (Nigh-impossible to obtain) or the Warmaster Daemonic Characters (10mm tall) can be used to represent "normal" Greater Daemons.
Those Warmaster Character models are all smaller than a Rhino APC ; I've no idea why you wouldn't use the Warmaster Greater Daemons for these DC3 monsters, instead of picking a model that you'd find it hard to justify as a LV, let alone a War Engine.




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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:24 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 26 Jul. 2008, 19:49 )

Use the Warmaster Greater Daemons to represent the named Daemons from the 40K Codex

Which runs specifically counter to one of Epic's core design principles... Epic does not include 'Special Characters'.

Well, thats debatable. Those demon princes come pretty close, and what about lists with generic characters but given a name (eg calling your commissar or SC Yarrik?).

As to the list, is it intended as a scenario force or a use anywhere army?

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:43 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 26 Jul. 2008, 11:49 )

I've no idea why you wouldn't use the Warmaster Greater Daemons for these DC3 monsters, instead of picking a model that you'd find it hard to justify as a LV, let alone a War Engine.

Read the design brief again as the answer to your question is there

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:55 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 26 Jul. 2008, 11:49 )

Use the Warmaster Greater Daemons to represent the named Daemons from the 40K Codex

Which runs specifically counter to one of Epic's core design principles... Epic does not include 'Special Characters'.

Special characters in infantry units. Nothing to say that a Titan sized Greater Daemon wouldn't merit a specific unit.

In any case you can always envision them as being examples of a type of Greater Daemon if that helps you deal with the concept.

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:41 pm 
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I agree with PG's assessment, there's a world of difference between a Human special character and a 100ton Daemon Lord.

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:11 am 
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Quote: (pixelgeek @ 26 Jul. 2008, 20:35 )

No Hatred rules. The Daemonic forces have agreed to work together for the duration of the battle and have put aside their differences for the moment.

I think you should allow for some acknowledgement of the antagonism between the powers;  I like Olly's suggestion in the other daemon discussion thread:

Initiative 1+ with maybe -1 if within 15/30cm (?) of a another god's formation to represent bickering?

Perhaps this could be applied when when the formation drops below a certain number of units, another element of the waning of the warp power that sustains them?

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:24 pm 
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The deployment scheme is going to cause a lot of metagame effects in objective placement.  Of course, those exist in the game as it is, so that's nothing especially new or different, but the dynamic will change.  Also, assuming I'm reading it correctly, with the equivalent of every daemon objective being a wraithgate, taking objectives will be a special challenge for the enemy.  Just 1-2 small daemon formations kept in reserve will be able to contest on demand.

Personally, for model selection, I would tend towards something like...

Epic/WM lesser daemons - lesser daemons
WM characters - leader types of some sort - icons, heralds, whatever
WM GDs - greater daemons, i.e. the 3DC version
40K GDs - titan-sized daemon lords, i.e. 6-10DC, 600+ points

===

Tzeentch Daemon Lord
WE, 25cm, 4+, 4+, 3+

4x Beams of Power 60cm MW5+
Staff of [cool name], assault weapon, extra attacks +2, TK(1)
Warp Fire, 30cm, 3BP TK(d3), Ignore cover
Gaze Attack [cool name], 45cm 2xMW3+, TK(1)
AND  Small arms, Extra Attack (+2), TK(1)

DC 7, Reinforced Armor, Invulnerable Save, Jump Pack (wings), Fearless, Inspiring, Commander [Supreme Commander?]

~650 points (less durable than a Reaver, more firepower)

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:26 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 28 Jul. 2008, 06:24 )

Just 1-2 small daemon formations kept in reserve will be able to contest on demand.

True but it also means you holding formations in reserve to do that.

How does the Eldar Warpgate get around that?

40K GDs - titan-sized daemon lords, i.e. 6-10DC, 600+ points


Anyone have a picture of these next to the old GDs and some troops?

One problem is that you can't but these singly

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:31 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 28 Jul. 2008, 06:24 )

Tzeentch Daemon Lord
WE, 25cm, 4+, 4+, 3+

4x Beams of Power 60cm MW5+
Staff of [cool name], assault weapon, extra attacks +2, TK(1)
Warp Fire, 30cm, 3BP TK(d3), Ignore cover
Gaze Attack [cool name], 45cm 2xMW3+, TK(1)
AND  Small arms, Extra Attack (+2), TK(1)

DC 7, Reinforced Armor, Invulnerable Save, Jump Pack (wings), Fearless, Inspiring, Commander [Supreme Commander?]

~650 points (less durable than a Reaver, more firepower)

Thats the sort of thing I was thinking of.

The army will have an overall Daemon Lord and I was thinking that if you included one of these beasties that it would have to be the Daemon Lord.

Mind you that also makes it the BTS goal as well.

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:45 pm 
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Quote: (firestorm40k @ 28 Jul. 2008, 00:11 )

I think you should allow for some acknowledgement of the antagonism between the powers;  I like Olly's suggestion in the other daemon discussion thread:

The current Codex is quite clear on this not being an effect in the army. I would suspect to encourage people to use daemons from all four powers.

If we are going to add critical effects like AA, air and artillery to faction specific units then I don't see why we would want to punish players for taking them by having their army work improperly.

In the CSM list you can easily get around this with Chaos Undivided formations or by simply not using units that conflict

That isn't the case with this army.

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:47 pm 
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How does the Eldar Warpgate get around that?


A single gate can be blocked, at least to the point of forcing the opponent to assault out of it into CC.  Aside from that, though, there really isn't anything.  I've seen 100-200 points kept in reserve just for that.  A bike formation can assault out and force FF, followed by a 35cm consolidation move.  It works okay.

Three gates would be considerably more problematic.  It would be almost impossible to block them unless you were already completely dominating.

It would depend on the formations available and the mechanisms for coming through the gates.  I would gladly keep a couple of 100-point formations in reserve for exactly that.  200 points off the board for 2 1/2 turns isn't a big deal compared to near-guaranteed objective grabs.

One problem is that you can't but these singly

What do you mean by this?  The 40K models are available as singles.  You're writing up your own army list, so you can make them available as singles in the list if you want.

As far as pics, I don't know of any easily available, but the GW website has them mounted on 50mm square bases.  That should give you a good idea of scale.  They are, as E&C said, a little bigger than a Warlord Titan.  The GUO looks to be about the same as a Great Gargant.

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:06 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 28 Jul. 2008, 07:47 )

One problem is that you can't but these singly


What do you mean by this?  The 40K models are available as singles.

Not according to the current GW US website. Boxes of fives for the metals and boxes of eight to ten for the plastics.

GW only sells, AFAIK, character models in single blisters.

And you can't bitz order them singly any more.

So if we wanted to use the Bloodletters then we would be sending people to eBay or some other source for minis unless they wanted to buy a box.

As for the heralds, we can either use the plastic standards from the CSM boxed set or if people buy the WM minis then they come with a standard strip in each blister.

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:10 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 28 Jul. 2008, 07:47 )

Three gates would be considerably more problematic.  It would be almost impossible to block them unless you were already completely dominating.

It would depend on the formations available and the mechanisms for coming through the gates.  I would gladly keep a couple of 100-point formations in reserve for exactly that.  200 points off the board for 2 1/2 turns isn't a big deal compared to near-guaranteed objective grabs.

Have to think about that.

What if contesting or controlling stopped you from using them to deploy troops?

I don't think it is in character if the army actually deploys normally so I'd like to find a balanced way to have warp rifts and teleporting daemons.

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 Post subject: Epic Chaos Daemon army list initial thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:23 pm 
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PG:  40K scale GREATER daemons as battle titan-sized WEs, not lesser daemons.  They come one to a box, just like titans.
This box conatins one Greater Daemon of Khorne...
   * Part Code: 99119915037


I don't really have any suggestions on the Warp Rift rules.  I think you're just going to have to experiment and see what happens.

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