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L&D v3.2 army list

nealhunt

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:59 pm

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Yme-Loc: 15 point transports versus 10 point would only make a difference of 210 points in that list. That's simply a small portion of the numerous Hydras. I don't understand why you think that would make a large difference in the effectiveness of that army.

For the record, I do agree that the transports are probably worth closer to 15 points than 10. I just don't see it as a significant factor in the list.

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wraeththu

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:50 pm

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ABOUT LT:

The Land Transporters have been discussed a number of times. Some feel that are too cheap and should be about 15pts each. Others feel they are just right at 10pts each. Well I fall into the 10pts group and I will list my reasons why. First a number of people point out that the cultists cost 15pts, the LT 10pts and they both have the same weapon stats. The LT has a 5+ save and cultists have no save. Well the differences start when you see cultists are infantry and LT are light vehicles. Anything can shoot at a LV. Covens have very few vehicles in the formation except LT, so the LT becomes a big target. Even bigger if they are carrying troops. Like it was mentioned above, your opponent will learn how to fight covens in LT. Covens are very vulnerable when in LT. I have seen 2/3 of a formation wiped out because a Marine player was quick to target an embarked coven in LT. This is when the coven is most vulnerable. Both AP and AT are capable of destroying a LT. So this makes them easy targets. When a LT is destroyed every unit that is being carried has to make a save or be destroyed. For Cultists and Mutants that will only be a 6+. Which means for every 3 LT destroyed on average only 1 infantry stand will survive. So when you destroy an embarked LT the odds are that you will get 3 units destroyed for the 1 hit. Plus a smart opponent will learn to even target empty LT and destroy them since this will slow the coven down considerably. Once you have a few units on foot at 15cm the whole formation starts to slow down. Transports are necessary for an assault oriented army like the L&D, but they do require some finesse to play. L&D players will learn not to keep units embarked in a LT at the end of that covens activation. You have a better chance of surviving if everyone is out of the LT than if you have the whole coven in 10-12 LTs. So to sum everything up, I feel the LT are a liability that can be exploited by an opponent, but they can also be put to effective use. There are many factors that have been discussed and play tested to come up with the 10 point cost. I hope this sheds some light on the reasons for LT being 10pts.

-Audrey

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wraeththu

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:08 pm

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Quote (yme-loc @ 01 Dec. 2005 (11:41))

Cult, Pts = 410
Chaos Marine Champion, 13 Cultists, 7 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, Chaos Hound.

I am curious, what do you plan to do with a formation like this? ?It has very little firepower for normal shooting. ?Charge the 13 cultistist and 1 Chaos Hound into a base contact and support with the 7 LT and 2 Hydras? ?It could possibly work by having so many different covens on the board. ?But they will not survive long if your opponent focuses on a few at a time.

-Audrey

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Irondeath

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:26 am

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Quote (yme-loc @ 01 Dec. 2005 (17:41))

Why is 15pts (What their stats are worth) pricing into oblivion.

A cultist army comprising something like the following will overwhelm an oponent with choices on the first turn.

Cult, Pts = 420
Chaos Marine Champion, 13 Cultists, 7 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, 2 Chaos Hounds.

Cult, Pts = 410
Chaos Marine Champion, 13 Cultists, 7 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, Chaos Hound.

Cult, Pts = 410
Chaos Marine Champion, 13 Cultists, 7 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, Chaos Hound.

Cult, Pts = 410
Chaos Marine Champion, 13 Cultists, 7 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, Chaos Hound.

Cult, Pts = 400
Chaos Marine Champion, 13 Cultists, 7 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's.

Cult, Pts = 400
Chaos Marine Champion, 13 Cultists, 7 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's.

Questor Titan, Pts = 275

Questor Titan, Pts = 275

141 units all moving at 30cm using their transports + 2 Questor Titans. with 12 hydras not much to worry about from the air.

I am sorry but if a list can reate these sorts of speed horde's its not a balanced list. There is no real defence apart from to play as well as you can and hope for a draw but a good 60-70 % of the time these sorts of lists will win.

Unless of course you use a speed horde list in return such as the horrible 250+ unit feral ork speed horde of doom.

Now I see where you are coming from!

I believe the problem is that 10Pts is balanced when a few Coven are mechanized in a more standard army that includes support formations and daemons. Here the countermeasures I offered work just fine.

In the LT-rush army you describe, that balance might indeed be lost.

But how could ?this be tackled? Limiting transport options to up to 3 Coven? Pricing won?t do the trick as it overcosts the non-beardy employment of LTs IMO.

Out of curiosity, you don?t seem to be using the most recent version of the list, 3.2, which has 11Cultists+1Demagogue@200Pts, meaning you only need 6 LT to mobilize them, and therefor leaving you with some spare points. :cool:

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yme-loc

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:20 pm

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Quote (nealhunt @ 01 Dec. 2005 (16:59))

Yme-Loc: ?15 point transports versus 10 point would only make a difference of 210 points in that list. ?That's simply a small portion of the numerous Hydras. ?I don't understand why you think that would make a large difference in the effectiveness of that army.

For the record, I do agree that the transports are probably worth closer to 15 points than 10. ?I just don't see it as a significant factor in the list.

Not really sure I understand this question nealhunt, if you have two players of equal skill and you gave one a 200pt advantage in a 3000pt game the player with the advantage would win alot, at least in my experience of epic (or any wargame).

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yme-loc

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:31 pm

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Quote (wraeththu @ 01 Dec. 2005 (17:50))

ABOUT LT:

The Land Transporters have been discussed a number of times. ?Some feel that are too cheap and should be about 15pts each. ?Others feel they are just right at 10pts each. ?Well I fall into the 10pts group and I will list my reasons why. ?First a number of people point out that the cultists cost 15pts, the LT 10pts and they both have the same weapon stats. ?The LT has a 5+ save and cultists have no save. ?Well the differences start when you see cultists are infantry and LT are light vehicles. ?Anything can shoot at a LV. ?Covens have very few vehicles in the formation except LT, so the LT becomes a big target. ?Even bigger if they are carrying troops. ?Like it was mentioned above, your opponent will learn how to fight covens in LT. ?Covens are very vulnerable when in LT. ?I have seen 2/3 of a formation wiped out because a Marine player was quick to target an embarked coven in LT. ?This is when the coven is most vulnerable. ?Both AP and AT are capable of destroying a LT. ?So this makes them easy targets. ?When a LT is destroyed every unit that is being carried has to make a save or be destroyed. ?For Cultists and Mutants that will only be a 6+. ?Which means for every 3 LT destroyed on average only 1 infantry stand will survive. ?So when you destroy an embarked LT the odds are that you will get 3 units destroyed for the 1 hit. ?Plus a smart opponent will learn to even target empty LT and destroy them since this will slow the coven down considerably. ?Once you have a few units on foot at 15cm the whole formation starts to slow down. ?Transports are necessary for an assault oriented army like the L&D, but they do require some finesse to play. ?L&D players will learn not to keep units embarked in a LT at the end of that covens activation. ?You have a better chance of surviving if everyone is out of the LT than if you have the whole coven in 10-12 LTs. ?So to sum everything up, I feel the LT are a liability that can be exploited by an opponent, but they can also be put to effective use. ?There are many factors that have been discussed and play tested to come up with the 10 point cost. ?I hope this sheds some light on the reasons for LT being 10pts.

-Audrey

In principle your points are good ones, except I have found from personal experience that the light vehicle vulnerability is not really that big a problem and is exagerated alot to justify quite a few bad points values.

Speed is the point, I dont even have to use these large fast formations to do anything other than survive with enough numbers to dispute or grab objectives (enough numbers being 1 transport).

Also 15pts when a direct analysis is done of the land transporters stats is actually cheap (closest analysis is actually something like an ork buggy at 25pts)

Buggy gains +5cm, +1FF but loses transport
This from the root power rule gives a landtransporter formation a point value of about 15-17.5pts.

Now of course different units have different values in different armies but a transport option is usually charged at a premium because speed is so important in epic and a cult acts in a very similar manner to an ork horde.

I just cant see why this possible speed hord abuse should be left in what is otherwise a very balanced list (more so than most of the lists releaed since the first 3).

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Legion 4

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:21 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Thanks for the intell "A" ... Us "old School" types can make up our own minds then ... I'm thinking Land Speeder = Flying Disc. ?And the Juggers & Slann Riders ... maybe CSM with Cav mov't rate ? ?How about the old Champion model ? ?I have 5 stands worth, or more ! ?We have C/Terminator models ... so any suggestions ? ?Or just CSMs with higher C/Cbt stat ?

Oh BTW ... I posted some of my Chaos model pics in 6mm Epic Forum ... not as good as many of yours, but shows a lot of Old School stuff. Take a look if you like, I'm always up for constructive comments. And I'm not a great pic taker but you get the idea ! :o0

Thanks !

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wraeththu

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:23 pm

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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:34 pm
Posts: 231

Quote (yme-loc @ 02 Dec. 2005 (09:31))

Which I have found the opposite. In the many play test games I have run they have been very fragile. But I admit I have not tried to run an army with as many minimal mobile covens as possible.

So your concern is that it doesn't matter how many casulaties there are. If there are a horde of covens then at least two or three will be intact enough to triple move and take any objective in turn 3 or later. Does that reasonably sum up your concerns? So is the issue more with the cost of the LT or the availability of it? Of course if you raise the cost it will lower the total number of units in the army.

-Audrey

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wraeththu

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:29 pm

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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:34 pm
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Quote (Irondeath @ 02 Dec. 2005 (05:26))

Out of curiosity, you don?t seem to be using the most recent version of the list, 3.2, ?which has 11Cultists+1Demagogue@200Pts, meaning you only need 6 LT to mobilize them, and therefor leaving you with some spare points. :cool:

He is using v3.2. 11 Cultists + 1 Demagogue + 2 extra Cultists + 7 LT + 1 Chaos Hounds = 410 pts

-Audrey

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Irondeath

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:35 pm

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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:36 pm
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 02 Dec. 2005 (16:21))

? Oh BTW ... I posted some of my Chaos model pics in 6mm Epic Forum ... not as good as many of yours, but shows a lot of Old School stuff. Take a look if you like, I'm always up for constructive comments. ? And I'm not a great pic taker but you get the idea ! ? :o0

?Thanks !

Not sure where there are stats for the other types but I?m using these in my World Eaters fanlist:

Juggers of Khorne Warband
One Chaos Lord character upgrade and eight Juggers of Khorne units
Daemonic Pact, Champion, Icon Bearer
350 points

and

Juggers of Khorne
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Infantry 20cm 3+ 3+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Bolters (15cm) Small Arms
Crush (base) Assault Weapons, Extra Attacks(+1)
Notes: Fearless. Infiltrators. Mounted

For stuff like Chosen and Chaos Titans check the Black Legion list available via the SG vault, it?s the sister list of the LatD list discussed here.

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wraeththu

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:42 pm

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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:34 pm
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But you can still come up with army lists like these below when the LT is 15pts. I may need to try both versions out to see if it can be abused.

Cult, Pts = 500
Chaos Marine Champion, 15 Cultists, 8 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, 2 Chaos Hounds.

Cult, Pts = 490
Chaos Marine Champion, 15 Cultists, 8 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, Chaos Hound.

Cult, Pts = 490
Chaos Marine Champion, 15 Cultists, 8 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, Chaos Hound.

Cult, Pts = 490
Chaos Marine Champion, 15 Cultists, 8 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, Chaos Hound.

Cult, Pts = 480
Chaos Marine Champion, 15 Cultists, 8 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's.

Questor Titan, Pts = 275

Questor Titan, Pts = 275

3000pts

or

Cult, Pts = 410
Chaos Marine Champion, 11 Cultists, 6 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, 2 Chaos Hounds.

Cult, Pts = 410
Chaos Marine Champion, 11 Cultists, 6 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, 2 Chaos Hounds.

Cult, Pts = 410
Chaos Marine Champion, 11 Cultists, 6 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, 2 Chaos Hounds.

Cult, Pts = 410
Chaos Marine Champion, 11 Cultists, 6 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, 2 Chaos Hounds.

Cult, Pts = 410
Chaos Marine Champion, 11 Cultists, 6 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's, 2 Chaos Hounds.

Cult, Pts = 400
Chaos Marine Champion, 11 Cultists, 6 Land transporters, 2 Hydra's. 1 Chaos Hounds.

Questor Titan, Pts = 275

Questor Titan, Pts = 275

3000pts

-Audrey

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nealhunt

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:07 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Quote (yme-loc @ 02 Dec. 2005 (14:20))

Quote (nealhunt @ 01 Dec. 2005 (16:59))

The point is that in order to "abuse" the LT option, you give up many other options. A ~7% increase in points is enough to (slightly) slant a game between experienced, competent players with free army selection. However, in your example, the extreme nature of the list is limiting and the difference in point values makes less difference than in an open selection.

Basically, despite the difference in points, that army list is not appreciably different in function with 8 Hydras than it is with 12. The tactical impact of the supposed 7% point differential is effectively reduced by the army being one-dimensional.

Also, I actually think that the value for the LT should be somewhere in the 12-14 point range, meaning that I think the "point break" is less than you do at 15. Even a fully exploited situation would only result in a 3-5% variance.

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Legion 4

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:12 pm

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Still thinking about what to do with my 5 Chaos Champ. stands - Terminators with FF 15cm weapons only and higher C/C rating ?

May use Androids as Oblits ? Or as Necrons ? :alien:

Could us old plastic Robots as Oblits ?

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yme-loc

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:36 pm

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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:58 pm
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Quote (nealhunt @ 05 Dec. 2005 (16:07))

Quote (yme-loc @ 02 Dec. 2005 (14:20))

Quote (nealhunt @ 01 Dec. 2005 (16:59))

The point is that in order to "abuse" the LT option, you give up many other options. ?A ~7% increase in points is enough to (slightly) slant a game between experienced, competent players with free army selection. ?However, in your example, the extreme nature of the list is limiting and the difference in point values makes less difference than in an open selection.

Basically, despite the difference in points, that army list is not appreciably different in function with 8 Hydras than it is with 12. ?The tactical impact of the supposed 7% point differential is effectively reduced by the army being one-dimensional.

Also, I actually think that the value for the LT should be somewhere in the 12-14 point range, meaning that I think the "point break" is less than you do at 15. ?Even a fully exploited situation would only result in a 3-5% variance.

An interseting idea, I think we will just have to disagree on this though.

In my experience even quite small points differences between forces can begin very quickly to have unbalancing effects as though it follows some kind of exponential rule.

Also at the end of the day who is to say how helpful in a game those 4 hydra's would be - sometimes very small things can have dramatic effects in a game of epic (and the fire power of 4 hydra's is certainly not an insignificant thing - both against air and land targets)

I am actually of the opinion that land transporters have an inherent points value of 15 - 17.5 pts so currently I feel the list gains a signicant advantage in points if it goes all out to abuse them.

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wraeththu

Post subject: L&D v3.2 army list

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:22 pm

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Ok I caught an error in LT stat. The Heavy Weapons are supposed to match the same stat line as the Cultists. In v3.2 it is AP5+/AT6+ it should be AP6+/AT6+. I doubt this will drastically change anyone's view in this debate.

But I am not sure that a 15pt LT would be worth while when you can pay 10 more pts for a Chimera which has more firepower, is armoured and has a better FF value.

I am sure this debate could go on for quite sometime, but a decision needs to be made. Time to voice your opinion. So how does everyone feel, do think the Land Transporter should be 10pts or 15pts?

Land Transporter 10pts (15pts?)

LV / 30cm / SV: 5+ / CC: 6+ / FF: 6+
Heavy Weapons 30cm AP6+/AT6+
Transport (2)

Traitor Chimera 25pts

AV / 30cm / SV: 5+ / CC: 6+ / FF: 5+
Mutilaser 30cm AP5+/AT6+
Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+
Transport (2)

-Audrey

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