Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

Death Guard v0.5-0.6

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:43 pm
Posts: 1074
Location: Devon, UK
Thanks again for feedback, both of you!

atension wrote:
I just like daemons. The way the list is currently stuctured with more expensive fornations its hard to justify including them and sacrificing formation count. Not that thats necessarily bad.

Ah, so not the cost-effectiveness of the demons themselves.

Regarding Zombies as Core, I think we're talking at cross-purposes, I didn't read your post as removing Plague Marines from Core, I was just asking whether you thought Zombies would grant access to Support formations.

Having thought through it some more, my initial negative reaction is reinforced. Even if they don't allow Support formations, Plague Zombies are already one of the most irritating formations in the list to play against, and removing restrictions will allow lists that simply aren't going to make for interesting games - for example eight Plague Zombie Infestations is less than half of a 3000 list, for an average of 80 Fearless bases. You could basically make it impossible for your opponent to advance out of their Deployment Zone the entire game, and regardless of effectiveness, that definitely falls into negative play experiences.

That said, I'm open to working on an additional type of Zombie formation as Core, presumably without Teleport, which could also be a place to experiment with enemy INF casualties turning into more Zombies.

For AVs, Death Guard are supposed to have fewer vehicles, but that's already represented in the list compared to Black Company, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons where the ACs unlock Support formations. If I remember correctly, you were a fan of moving the AC and AAC formations to Core when it was done.




@gunslinger007

Terminators - yes, I think they're going to have to go back to a single statline. It seems that EA simply doesn't have the design space for 'Assault Terminators' in a useful fashion. Note that the 5+ INV and reduced price also comes with a removal of Thick Rear Armour, so they're less robust when surrounded. Plus Mounted and Walker to make them less manoeuvrable.

Steve54's original version had 3+ RA and they were just painful to try and kill, while again being just as easy to break.


Nurgling Infestation - agreed, this is one of the most successful additions to the list, in terms of fluffiness and making the formations play differently.


Defiler variants - there's no good solution. :-(
If I remove the Defilers, atension will have another fit. ;-)
If I remove the Desecrators, the list has no on-table AA, and no obvious place to put it that doesn't contradict the background pretty badly (Obliterators, for example, as their virus gets messed up by Nurgle).
If I remove the Plague Hulk, we're taking away the only Power-specific Defiler variant that is actually canon.


Plague Tower Transport - this is taken verbatim from the 'official' Stigmatus Coven list, but the wording is horrible - GUCs are listed as 16, and then in the second sentence are said to take up two spaces.


Nurgle's Rot - Yes, it's fiddly, but moving it back to being a formation-level ability means reworking the Beasts of Nurgle yet again, as they're currently balanced by having Nurgle's Rot as a unit-level ability.

For some more blue-sky thinking, changing Nurgle's Rot so that it creates Zombies would be a possibility, but in the modern background it's the Walking Pox that does that, not Nurgle's Rot. The end result of Nurgle's Rot has always been… Plaguebearers.

Sooooo. What if casualties to Nurgle's Rot formations add to the Daemon Pool? Restricted to INF casualties in assaults. This would obviously need lots of experimenting for cost, limits on how many can be converted into Lesser Daemons, formation-level vs unit-level etc. but would have the positive side effect of making Daemonic Pact more attractive.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader - we buy and sell used GW.
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:00 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 8:54 pm
Posts: 2236
Location: Cornwall
Yeah, zombies are evil - or at least the teleporting ones are! No more please! :-)

Could possibly live with Pox-walker formations as hoard infantry on foot, but still not sure if they should be core... Would be a interesting option but would need to ensure it doesn't allow activation spam - i guess large formation sizes which would act as defensive screens and tar pits around objectives/blitz. Worth trying maybe.

However, Nurgles rot causing "powering up" of the daemon pool is a class A great idea! Would be nice to see more plague bearers about (and if people choose zombies/pox walkers to represent them then fine) and creates a nice feel of an infection growing as the battle develops.

I say draft a proposal, something along the lines of a D6 chance (5/6?) of generating a daemon pool point for each casualty in CC by a unit with NR? (not just infantry, I'm sure tank crews would make fine plague bearers and it would be too fiddly/fringe otherwise). Importantly it give NR units a definite niche and reason for list inclusion and tactical use (ie. aiming early casualties to boost later combats). Might even be worth adding the ability to Nurglings?

The only potential OP unit i can think of is the terminators, which potentially could rack up a lot of CC kills early on and then recycle them into plague bearers the next turn - then again, making them worth their points has always been a problem so maybe this would help??

Though not quite clear on the wording of Nurgles Rotters : "The formation counts as having an additional unit with Nurgle's Rot" - "do you mean additional unit ability"?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:36 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:00 pm
Posts: 906
Location: Toronto
Quote:
Having thought through it some more, my initial negative reaction is reinforced. Even if they don't allow Support formations, Plague Zombies are already one of the most irritating formations in the list to play against, and removing restrictions will allow lists that simply aren't going to make for interesting games - for example eight Plague Zombie Infestations is less than half of a 3000 list, for an average of 80 Fearless bases. You could basically make it impossible for your opponent to advance out of their Deployment Zone the entire game, and regardless of effectiveness, that definitely falls into negative play experiences. 

That said, I'm open to working on an additional type of Zombie formation as Core, presumably without Teleport, which could also be a place to experiment with enemy INF casualties turning into more Zombies.

For AVs, Death Guard are supposed to have fewer vehicles, but that's already represented in the list compared to Black Company, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons where the ACs unlock Support formations. If I remember correctly, you were a fan of moving the AC and AAC formations to Core when it was done.


I was for the AAC not the AC. Both seems too much. You are absolutely correct about the zombie formations being too annoying and spammable in thier current state moving to thd core selection. Yeah they would need to lose teleport and or be adjusted in other ways.

I think you are really on to something though with kills contributing daemon pool expansion. That would be really interesting and a good way to ensure daemons are included. Also a good way to balance out the cost of some of the more expensive formations rather than making them ungodly resilient or giving them near guaranteed assault wins.

_________________
Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:25 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 2:48 am
Posts: 660
Location: NJ, USA
Can't say I see the need for a cheap zombie core formation. One of the weaknesses of the list is the small activation account, but it's countered by more resilient and durable elite formations.

The list can already easily fit three of the formations (2 in support and one from the plague ship.) Not sure opponents would enjoy there being even more!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

_________________
Grey Knights AC: http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 30&t=33211

Steel Legion/ Knights/ Wolves/ Tau/ Death Guard/ Nids/ Grey Knights/ Eldar/ Ghaz' Horde/ AMTL

The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net