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Manticores

 Post subject: Manticores
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:30 pm 
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Why not remove the Disrupt special on it to make it a comparable choice to the basilisk instead of a no-brainer?

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 Post subject: Re: Manticores
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:34 pm 
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I'd rather see the points nudged than the stats changed:

3x Basilisks - 225pts
3x Manticores - 250pts
3x Bombards - 200pts

IMO

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 Post subject: Re: Manticores
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Basilkisks have their place..... E&C's points suggestion works for me (love my bombards!), but I don't think 250 is unreasonable for 3BP every turn, an improved save and the ability to direct fire....

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 Post subject: Re: Manticores
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Basilisks are fairly close to Manticores in worth I agree.
It's Bombards that I think really are overpriced.

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 Post subject: Re: Manticores
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Yeah, they're a bit weaker I agree, 200 would be nice!

They are great for blowing garrisons to bits though!

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 Post subject: Re: Manticores
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Jst want topoint out that the Wh40k Bombard has a vastlyincreased range compared tohis Epic counterpart.
IIRC we discussed this before some time ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Manticores
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:23 am 
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The Bombard in EpicA is really rather an anomaly. The Epic Space Marine 1st and 2nd edition Bombard was an extremely long range, powerful, slow firing artillery piece built onto a Leman Russ chassis, with no other guns:

Image

Unlike the metal Epic 40k one the current 40k FW Bombard matches the original one:

Image

If we to do that Bombard properly in EpicA it'd have a 10cm move to match it's extremely slow speed in the background/rules (best with 'May not Garrison' in it's notes though), either a 5+ or 6+ save (it's open topped and there's zero room for the gun crew inside it, however it's built onto a tougher Russ chassis to start with), no heavy bolter and 120cm range on it's gun, probably for 300 points or so.

The last IG Codex introduced the Colossus Siege Tank, which is similar and closer to what we have in EpicA, being mounted on a Chimera chasis and having a heavy bolter. As with the Bombard it's gun is equivalent in range to a Basilisk though, there isn't a short ranged siege artiillery gun like the EpicA one in 40k at all. I'm not sure what the best option would be - I'd like to adopt proper stats for the Bombard as above, but that might be too big a change for some people? In which just case re-naming the epic Bombard a Colossus could be an easier option to fit better with 40k (as is a 40k player coming to epic is going to find the epic Bombard way off what it should be).

Griffon going up to 5+ save in the SL list is appropriate and could make it used more commonly.

I think the Manticore should be left as is. Perhaps there could be justification for Basilisks going to 225, I don't know either way, personally I always choose Manticores over them.


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 Post subject: Re: Manticores
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:42 am 
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Bombard actually has very weak armour in 40k despite its hull.

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 Post subject: Re: Manticores
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:04 pm 
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I'd suggest keeping the name Bombard but basing the stats on the Colossus. Amalgamating the two 40k siege mortar vehicles into one makes sense at epic scale, and Bombard is the better-known name.

No real opinion on stats as I've never seen them in play (well, once, but that was against a SM/TL grognard and he insisted on proxying them as Manticores because of the range). Range should be kept short because, well, it doesn't look like a long range gun now does it. What the muppets in charge of 40k development think it deserves has no weight with me. The range swap EA did (aforementioned grognard said Manticores and Bombards swapped ranges at one point, is that true?) was a good idea IMO. The Bombard has a niche, attacking the middle of the board with IC barrage, which is useful against garrisons. Dropping the points or modifying the stats but keeping the niche seems like a good idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Manticores
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:28 pm 
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I'd still suggest dropping points rather than upping stats.

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 Post subject: Re: Manticores
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Just for comparison (the minimum range is only used for indirect shots):
Colossus:
Range 24"-240", Strength 6, Armourpiercing 3, Ordnance 1, Barrage, 5" Blast, Ignores Cover, Can't fire directly
Armour 12/10/10 (same as Chimera) but Open Topped.

Bombard:
Range 36"-240", Strength 8, Armourpiercing 3, Ordnance 1, Barrage, 7" Blast, Slow-firing, Bunker Buster
Armour 12/10/10 (same as Chimera) but Open Topped. Slow speed.

Basilisk:
Range 36"-240", Strength 9, Armourpiercing 3, Ordnance 1, Barrage, 5" Blast
Armour 12/10/10 (same as Chimera) but Open Topped.

Manticore:
Range 24"-120", Strength 10, Armourpiercing 4, Ordnance D3, Barrage, 5" Blast, 4 One-Shot Missiles
Armour 12/10/10 (same as Chimera)

Griffon:
Range 12"-48", Strength 6, Armourpiercing 4, Ordnance 1, Barrage, 5" Blast, Can't fire directly
Armour 12/10/10 (same as Chimera) but Open Topped.

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Last edited by BlackLegion on Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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