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Elysian Sentinels

 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:20 am 
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I played a few test run scenarios with a few people with the support sentinels.

Here are a few things that came up.

On average - the three support sentinels threw out there 3 BP (which consulting the barrage tables ended up with a single template, no extra blast markers AP4+/AT6+)  We were on average getting the blast marker to hit ~ four or five stands (infantry was laid out in an advancing pattern, not all grouped together - then we would have hit more, but people tend to space their stuff out and not pack all their stands right next to each other).

Hitting 50% of the time, we were hitting about 2-3 stands.  Of which about one was saving (these are rough numbers after running a bunch of tests).  So total effect for a barrage from a full support sentinel unit was a total of one/two killed infantry stands (we actually had some good rolling where he would save two stands a few times - with 6+ saves, that's damn good) and ending up with a total of 2 blast markers on the unit.

I didn't relay the cost to them, but when I told them it was 100 points - definately not worth it came to mind.  Being a Griffin battery is laying out pretty much the same effect round after round, has double the range the support sentinels do, has a little more punch to it with the heavy bolter, 1.5 times faster, and is a full armored vehicle (not a lightvehicle, so not as succeptable to all weapons, and most multi purpose weapons having both an AP and AT value have a better AP rating - making the sentinel even more succeptable) - it pretty much didn't even compare.

So what would you do?  Asked if they would up them to a unti of four, add disrupt - what would you do to make them a more effective support weapon.

You could up them to four - that would give them the extra template, thereby hitting more teams and having a greater chance to kill/add more blast markers - as this is typically a one shot unit - so it needs more punch in that full barrage.

Alternatively, disrput would allow them to lay more blast markers on the enemy unit, but wouldn't really allow them to kill any more infantry -so net net, same infantry loses, but we were able to throw down 3-4 blast markers on the unit versus the normal 2.

Both wouldn't be entirely out of the question, as your only doing it once - just working through these, not with them - I would imagine this barrage to hit about 8 stands of infantry or so - without disrupt, it would probably kill 2-3 stands - resulting in 3-4 BP and two dead stands - which is where I think we should be.  

I think having four and disrupt is way over the top - as if you hit 8 infantry stands you'd only end up killing the same amount - 2-3, but would be throwing down a whopping 9 BPs for that (way too much for this unit).  

Just a thought and some outside advice - but the end results were either make them units of four, or give them disrupt (and there is a precedence for this, the Valkyries have the rocket pods and they have disrupt).  I don't consider this official playtesting, more weapons testing with players willing to comment.


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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:16 am 
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I'll have to go back through the notes, but did we really settle on one shot?

I guess I was thinking that we had landed on somewhere around 3 BP, but you'd get a shot every turn. I think the one shot thing is a bit fiddly as it is with the V/V, but I really question whether anyone would spend the points for this capability.

I put together a quick 2700 point list with the changes that we have so far and I was able to squeeze in one unit of MM Drop Sentinels because their punch will be quite necessary in any drop, but I hardly think that the rocket pod version would be worth the effort as your early testing is pointing out.

So, call the rocket pod something else, so that we get what we need?

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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:42 am 
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That was my thought initially - but there were a lot of good points brought up in comparing the support sentinels to the Griffins - and on almost every level, they just don't stack up.  Not saying they should, but points wise they should reflect this.

Also, IA3 says exactly what the support sentinel is equipped with (Rocket Pods and Missile Launcher).  And, for better or worse - precedence has already been set for this weapon.

My initial thought was looking at the landspeeder Typhoon missile launcher (something that is designed to perform a similiar role).  So - using that as a baseline, we could create a single version of the typhoon and because that is a twin linked weapon, a single version would be AP4+/AT6+ - which is pretty close to what we're looking for (no BP weapon).

Alternatively we could call it a support rocket battery or something?  We could also move towards a BP type weapon - or just use the missile launcher stats?

My personal opinion - if we went to a unit of three, and gave them disrupt (which falls in line with precedence with the rocket pod rules) it would be an effective unit and maybe worth the points.  It would pack a decent punch and be able to kill a couple infantry stands, but more importantly place about 3-4 blast markers - not enough to really effect a unit on its own, but combined with an infantry unit or some aerial support - could be the difference between breaking a unit and not.  I think that fits in exactly where we want them - not strong enough on its own, but enough to make it the straw that breaks a units back.

I'm really pushing for this one, unfortunately this is pretty much it - just like your argument on the Thunderbolts - we shouldn't be re-writing weapons (IMHO) - so we're stuck with either rocket pods as they are written, or missile launchers?  

I'd also be OK with units of four equiped with missile launchers.  I strongly feel we should be using one of these two options.


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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:53 am 
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Just an idea... don't shoot.

What do you think about haveing the drop sentinels be 100 for 4 - as previously planned with ID.

Then, we could also have the support sentinels be 125-150 for 4.

Then, we could make the support sentinels the way we need them.

The first one could be the longer ranged indirect fire and AT capable missle launcher variant. I'm thinking this one would be 125 for 4. These would have ID.

The second one could be 1 BP each for the Sentinel-MRP version with disrupt. (no single shot) I'm thinking this one would be 150 for 4. These would have ID.

Anyway, just an idea fellas

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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:02 am 
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My only issue is not having one shot.  I don't think we have the right to modify a weapons system - we can use them, but have to keep with the stats.  Having rocket pods on the Valkyries be different from rocket pods on sentinels just doesn't work for me - and I think people would have an issue with that.  Yes it requires a little more paperwork, but I can't stress the precedence issue when it comes to weapons.  If you changed how autocannons work and said your autocannons should be one better - people wouldn't like that much.

I still think your options for weapons are:

Rocket Pods - 30 cm, 1 BP, single shot, disrupt (what the rules are for this weapon)
OR
Missile Launchers - 45 cm, AP5+/AT6+

If we are truly going to keep to our statement that we are using IA3 for our guidance - then these are our options.  I think the number of sentinels is more flexible than the type of weapons and their stats.

Just my two cents - but I feel strongly about this.


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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:23 am 
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Well, you are correct.

The sentinel carries the exact same weapon system as the Valkyrie, but only 1 of them instead of 2 of them. I just checked IA3 and it really is the same weapon - i.e. MRP.

The other sentinel is the missile launcher variant capable of firing an indirect shot up to 48" away as a blast effect frag missle THAT ALWAYS CAUSES PINNING TESTS - or it may fire a direct shot 48" away with LOF as a Krak missile with a potent S8 shot.

Perhaps we could get rid of the MRP variant all together as the Indirect missile firing variant really does the job of both in E:A.

The thing would look like...

4 @150 points for the formation

Light Vehicle

(same - armor, CC, FF stats as discussed...)

Support Missile Launcher,
? ? FRAG MISSILE, R25cm, 1BP, Indirect Fire
? ? OR
? ? KRAK MISSILE, 50cm, AT4+, --

Notes: Walker, Iron Discipline


OK... well, what do you think?





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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:44 am 
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Well - I kind of like the idea - but to be the voice of reason, missile launchers already have rules.

45 cm, AP5+/AT6+

So even though I like it, playing devil's advocate - we'd effectively be changing the rules - and who's to say a Space Marine player wouldn't want to use these rules for his Dreadnoughts as well?

I don't want to sound like I'm being a pain - but changing the way existing weapons systems works is something we shouldn't be venturing into - just asking for people to not take the list seriously.  

Someone has to play devil's advocate I guess?


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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:03 pm 
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Missile Launchers - 45 cm, AP5+/AT6+


Ok, this discussion could go on for awhile, I'm going to propose that we use CosmS missile launcher recommendation for four units.

Points? 125?

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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:05 pm 
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I'd still leave them at 100 points, they aren't different from the existing multilaser sentinels that are 100 points?  The only difference is a range increase of 15 cm, not worthy of a 25 point increase in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:06 pm 
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Going once, going twice...   :/

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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:38 pm 
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Objection.  

While I like the options I don't think we've settled on whether the rocket pod is one shot or not (unless I missed that).

While i like the missile launcher option the 1 shot 1BP option doesn't seem that um...impressive to me.

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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:51 pm 
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Quote (Cosmic Serpent @ 20 Mar. 2006 (21:44))
Well - I kind of like the idea - but to be the voice of reason, missile launchers already have rules.

45 cm, AP5+/AT6+

So even though I like it, playing devil's advocate - we'd effectively be changing the rules - and who's to say a Space Marine player wouldn't want to use these rules for his Dreadnoughts as well?

I don't want to sound like I'm being a pain - but changing the way existing weapons systems works is something we shouldn't be venturing into - just asking for people to not take the list seriously. ?

Someone has to play devil's advocate I guess?

CosmS,

This comes straight from IA3.

Its not the same missle launcher that marines uses.

The Sentinel has a piece of gear that specifically modifys it to shoot differently than a marine's typicaly missile launcher.

Also, there's a precident in E:A to change a weapon name.

Support Missile Launcher

vs.

Missle Launcher

so there is absolutely no violation of E:A space marines.

In core design, space marine missle launchers DON'T fire indirect.

In core design, the Elysian missile launcher DOES fire frag rounds indirectly.

Right - I've said my piece.

You guys take it from there...

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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:50 pm 
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Ok, I feel like I can see my tail just ahead of me...so where are we on this?

I seem to keep hearing that 3 BP for the unit isn't that worthwhile, but 3 BP + Disrupt is worth considering.

Q1: Is the preference or is it worth the bother to design 3 BP + Disrupt for the Support Sentinel?

Q2: Are we still in agreement that the formation size should be 3 units?

Q3: I would rather have the AP5+/AT6+ launcher instead

Note: There is no mention of "one shot" in the above proposal.

What say ye?

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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:13 pm 
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Q1: Is the preference or is it worth the bother to design 3 BP + Disrupt for the Support Sentinel?
1 BP per unit with disrupt would work. ?Three on its own is not that strong

Q2: Are we still in agreement that the formation size should be 3 units?
For support sentinels I would be tempted to go with units of 4 to get 4 bp (but no disrupt). ?I could easily see three though in accordance with standard sentinel ?unit sizes

Q3: I would rather have the AP5+/AT6+ launcher instead
Personally rather have a launcher (there is a significant amount of potential BPs already in this list), but am not keen on those stats for the launcher. Typhoon stats are AP3+ AT 5+.



Having said that i'm ?fully in suport of CS's exact proposal

4 @150 points for the formation

Light Vehicle

(same - armor, CC, FF stats as discussed...)

Support Missile Launcher,
? ?FRAG MISSILE, R25cm, 1BP, Indirect Fire
? ?OR
? ?KRAK MISSILE, 50cm, AT4+, --

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 Post subject: Elysian Sentinels
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:37 am 
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I don't know if I should just respond to Honda's questions or ask more - but I want to clarify a few things.

Are we all in agreement that a rocket pod is a rocket pod - whether mounted on a Valkyrie or a support sentinel?

If we all agree then it has to be one shot, as that is the rule for that weapon.

I don't have my IA3 on me, so I can't look at the support sentinel missile launcher option - so I'll have to table my thoughts on that.

As for the numbers of sentinels - I think it depends on the weapon system.  If the system is capable of laying down BP's and has disrupt, then we'd have to go with three.  If you have no disrupt, it could be raised to four without any huge issues (would be about the same effectiveness).

As far as a missile launcher - I could definately live with the AP5+/AT6+ 45cm range missile launcher in a unit of four.

I think I answered all of Honda's questions in a round about manner?


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