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Elysian Sentinels
Cosmic Serpent	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:21 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am Posts: 137 Location: Chicago	I would say yes - reasoning being if you look at a rocket pod (or even a modern day version) they unleash a bunch of small rockets that saturate an area whereas a Griffon (no modern day equivalent that I can think of) lets loose with one large shell.  So I would say the Rocket Pods would be roughly equivalent to the heavy mortars that a Griffon supports - if anything - in reality they would be better (better saturation, and fragmentation). I think the way things are developing we are creating three categories of artillery type support - light being mortars and at 2 BP, medium support being anything ~4-6 BP, and then the full blown artillery support companies coming in with the heavy hitters at 9+ BP. My current belief is that the Elysians aren't getting anything heavier than the support Sentinels for organic support (ie no artillery company) so just like your statement on Storm Troopers - I'd like to see someone abuse the Sentinel rules at 4 BP to really change my mind.   I'm still hung up on the precedence of rocket pods being single shot.  For some reason, I've never been too keen on the 1/2 BP type rules - but that's just me, not saying they aren't valid or anything. I would think if you gave them (the unit) 4 BP+Disrupt and made them single shot - they might work, although that single shot thing really sucks (again, having precendence for the weapon though) - and at 100 points that might be a bit expensive (seeing as a Valkyrie is only 40 points). I still think our baseline should be to get them around 4 BP though - lower and your really not being that effective and not a truly dedicated support element - could be a bit higher - but not too high or then your in the real artillery realm.
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Honda	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:54 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	So, I see us with two possible flavors: a) Four units, 1 BP per unit, 1 shot b) Four units, 1/2 BP per unit, not-1 shot and if you don't like either of those, there's the always popular: c) Four units, 7 BP per unit, 2 x shots per unit     Kidding on C of course. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Cosmic Serpent	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:27 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am Posts: 137 Location: Chicago	Here is the issue I have with option B - we're basically replicating mortars - so we really aren't getting anything but an independent unit (very fragile compared to mortar units) as they have the rest of the infantry to meat shield for them. I would say that option A would have to have the disrupt ability as well - especially if it was going to be one shot. ?What really bugs me about the whole thing is the previous precidence of the rocket pods being single shot. ? Maybe we just need to come up with a new weapon - support rocket battery? Oh yeah, I really like option C though. 1 BP, disrupt - no shot limitations - 100 points for the squad?
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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:30 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (Honda @ 16 Mar. 2006 (07:54)) So, I see us with two possible flavors: a) Four units, 1 BP per unit, 1 shot b) Four units, 1/2 BP per unit, not-1 shot and if you don't like either of those, there's the always popular: c) Four units, 7 BP per unit, 2 x shots per unit ? ? Kidding on C of course. C... heh...   Right, so I think I like option B more than option A. I think we all know that a 4BP attack from sentinels is well... unrealistic. That's the firepower of Two Manticores Missles for cryin out loud! What seems more reasonable to me is 1BP for every 2. I'd like to see 6 sentinels in the formation as they don't scout and they are meant to support. The max effect would be a 3BP attack that is at least meaningful, but not menacing. A 2BP attack just seems insignificant. Alas, if a 6 sentinel formation is too big, then go with a 4 sentinel formation and we'll just have to see how that works. I definitely want to caution more 'one-shot' record keepign though. Even if it means we sacrifice a bit of the 'power' from the formation. Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Cosmic Serpent	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:47 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am Posts: 137 Location: Chicago	I agree that 2 BP for an independent support unit is  just too insignificant, but do you really feel 4 BP is too powerful? I'm trying to find a picture for you of 2.75 inch FFAR (Folding Fin Aerial Rocket) in action - but can't seem to find one.  This system is basically what the rocket pods on the Vulture are - I think after seeing what 19 rockets being thrown down range does to ground troops - you might think 1 BP per rocket pod isn't enough. What about just setting them up as missile launchers?  I know the idea has been mentioned a few times - but never seriously discussed. Could just act as standard missile launchers - AP 5+/AT 6+ (personally I like the BP idea better - be there seems to be a fairly large gap in what we think and how it should be treated.
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Cosmic Serpent	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:59 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am Posts: 137 Location: Chicago	Looking at the Catachan list lead me to want to go and investigate the Siege Masters list as well.  Most of their support units come in groups of three - and looking at the Elysian TO&E all their Sentinel squadrons are based on units of three as well.   Again, precedence dictates that Sentinel Squadrons are four (which is true from looking at IA1 TO&Es) - maybe we need to look at making our Sentinel units three strong, and being our core guidance is using IA3 as a framework - this would be truer to IA3 TO&E. If we went with 1 BP per unit (I know some people thought 4 BP total was too powerful, personally I do not) - but having units of three would lead to 3 BP barrages from Sentinel units. Just another observation from looking at the other IG lists out there.
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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:32 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	CosmS, 3 in a formation means they will break terribly easily. I think 3BP is the meaningful number and happy medium inbetween the other options. I really don't see sentinels sending out a 4BP barrage - if nothing more than lack of accuracy, but 6 sentinels could certainly put out 3BP of damage. So, for now, I'm sold on 6 and think 3 is too small for a stand alone formation that is this fragile. Sorry. cheers, _________________ Rob
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Cosmic Serpent	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:43 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am Posts: 137 Location: Chicago	I just think 6 Sentinels is too many for a unit. ?Using existing rules/precedence - Sentinels come in units of four (All IG Lists) - or going by IA3, they should be 3 to a squadron. ? I still don't see why some are saying 4 BP is too much - in the grand scheme of things - it is on the lighter side, but not as light as our mortars. ?I by no means recommend something on the order of true artillery - but four rocket pods in my opinion is worthy of 4 BP's worth of supression fire - as that's what those type of weapons are designed to do (and take out light vehicles) It's OK to disagree with me - makes things more fun, and more balanced in the end.
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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:55 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	CosSer, I agree with you that 3 sentinels is the staple. I like the idea actually. The problem is that the formation gets shot and loses one sentinel, now breaks. Now if they had the proposed Iron Discipline rule, it would work fine actually... hmm... might be on to something there... see my post in the drop troops thread. If we could get the 3 sentinel formation with Iron Discipline, i'd be right there with you actually. 1 BP per unit, 3 in the formation, and Iron Discipline as written. yep - I could dig that. _________________ Rob
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Honda

Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:08 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

If we could get the 3 sentinel formation with Iron Discipline, i'd be right there with you actually. 1 BP per unit, 3 in the formation, and Iron Discipline as written. I think we should pursue this line of reasoning as I like how it is shaping up. Things I agree on: 1. A straight three unit formation will be lucky to get a shot off before it breaks. One way to deal with this is to make it a company upgrade, the other is what Tac/CosmS are working out. 2. I just struggle with 4 BP for this unit. 3. Going back to the +5AP/+6AT is also a very viable solution, especially with four units. This ought to be considered as a fair swap for #1. Keep it going, this is really good stuff. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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jfrazell	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:42 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm Posts: 144	Looks like we're starting to weed down on some of the points. Looks like the melta sentinel has been positively received without comment.   1) How does the pricing look to everyone? 2) FF/CC/Ranges - any difference of opinion or further comment Also, the support sentinel.  Assuming a 1BP per unit (in whatever amount that comes down 1-12 heh heh) 1) How does the pricing look to everyone? 2) FF/CC/Ranges - any difference of opinion or further comment 3) Also I did not get a clear sense whether this would have indirect fire capability or purely direct fire. Final note: current discussion involving Iron Discipline. Assumption that there is no disagreement on ID for sentinels, especially if the final formation size comes down to three? _________________ "Advance to the Rear!"
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Cosmic Serpent	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:39 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am Posts: 137 Location: Chicago	I'm of the opinion that all Elysian units should have the Iron Dsicipline rule. Even the Valkyries and Vultures.  Reason being is that these guys are core to the army - and they would know that if they flee the battle, they are effectively leaving the troops on the ground in a serious lurch.   I envision our Valkyrie/Vulture pilots to be like the helicopter pilots in We Were Soldiers - they aren't leaving the ground forces without support, come hell or high water. Just my thoughts.  Seems like Iron Discipline hasn't gotten much feedback from the community at large yet? Needs a new topic - I'll get that going.
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Honda

Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:57 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Even the Valkyries and Vultures.  Reason being is that these guys are core to the army - and they would know that if they flee the battle, they are effectively leaving the troops on the ground in a serious lurch.   I envision our Valkyrie/Vulture pilots to be like the helicopter pilots in We Were Soldiers - they aren't leaving the ground forces without support, come hell or high water. Actually, the Valkyries are a formation upgrade, so they are going to get the ID any way. Regarding Vultures, I'm not sure I agree with ID. Reasons: aircraft no matter how tough, will bail in the face if sufficient flak and this starts changing the basic behavior of a previously published unit (SL). I don't think we want to go there. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:37 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	All, I'll respond to the various ID topics that are cropping up - in that thread Sentinels - I have no problems with the multimelta an HB version of the drop sentinels at this time. - all drop and support formations 3 per makes sense. - all sentinels should have ID (as noted in the ID thread) - MRP version should NOT have indirect fire - MRP 1 BP per sentinel = yes. - I'm still in favor of the second support sentinel as per IA3 which would yeild an indirect and direct fire AT shot, especially since the Elysians were the first IG to ever field this variant. Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Honda	Post subject: Elysian Sentinels Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:50 am
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	Sentinels - I have no problems with the multimelta an HB version of the drop sentinels at this time. Agreed. - all drop and support formations 3 per makes sense. - all sentinels should have ID (as noted in the ID thread)

The current formation has four as costed. Do we really need to go to 3 per vs. 4? Or is this the mechanism that gets the unit down to 3 BP?

Agree on the ID.


- MRP version should NOT have indirect fire
- MRP 1 BP per sentinel = yes.


Agree and see above.


- I'm still in favor of the second support sentinel as per IA3 which would yeild an indirect and direct fire AT shot, especially since the Elysians were the first IG to ever field this variant.


So I'll push back. Do we really need this fourth version of a Sentinel?