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Valkyries and Vultures oh my....
Cosmic Serpent	Post subject: Valkyries and Vultures oh my.... Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:59 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am Posts: 137 Location: Chicago	So, now that we have narrowed down the support sentinel to something we are all comfrotable with, and we are begining to get into the meaty reasoning about aircraft - I thought it was time to jump into a needed discussion on two main units of the army list: Valkyries and Vultures. I think most people will agree that second to the infantry, these are the core units in this list, and playing this list is really about playing with a fair number of these skimmers. That being said, and looking back into IA1 for guidance I want to propose something that I believe will be a hot topic of discussion.  I am proposing we duplicate the Vultures (and maybe Valks) directly from IA1. What I am really wanting to do is give the Elysian player the ability to tailor his army.  As for a number of reasons listed in the aircraft thread (no SH tanks, no Titans, no real artillery) - we fall back on these two aircraft to pull most of that weight (with the smattering of Imperial Navy air formations as well). I would like to propose we use the hardpoint configuration as listed in IA1.  Each Vulture has two hardpoints and the stats would be as follows Normal Stats for Vulture Heavy Bolter       AP5+ Hard Point 1 - one option from the below list Twin Lascannons               45cm     AT4+ Twin Missile Launchers       45cm     AP4+/AT5+ Twin Autocannons             45cm     AP4+/AT5+ Twin Multilasers                 30cm    AP4+/AT5+ 2 Multiple Rocket Pods        30cm     1 BP    Disrupt, One Shot Hard Point 2 - one option from the below list Bombs Twin Missile Launcher        45cm     AP4+/AT5+   2 Multiple Rocket Pods       30cm     1 BP     Disrupt, One Shot 2 Hellstrike Missiles            45cm     AT2+   One Shot We could obviously pair this down, giving you lascannons, autocannons and MRP on hardpoint one (eliminate the weapons that have duplicate stats) and all three options on hardpoint two. This would truly allow for use to configure our main support aircraft as needed - and as befitting a force such as ours.  I don't think it would be overbalancing at all - we can just tailor our force a little more since we have to make up for the loss of all those things mentioned above.   A note on MRP - I know in the other thread there was some mention of sentinels+Valkyries being able to throw down a 12BP barrage, well these guys could throw down up to a 16BP barrage if you took all four with MRP.  Of course that's all they would do for you - as they would be totally out of weapons as that point and be left with only their HB. Just as a comparison note, the Manticores can throw out an 18 BP barrage, at much longer range - and do it multiple times in a game.  They cost 650 points for nine of them - but I think our 300 points for four Vultures fits in, as we can only do it once, and the barrage isn't quite as large (16 versus 18). The only thing I haven't accounted for is our barrage has the disrupt ability - so it is likely to break an infantry unit if you threw it all down at once like this.  Maybe not an ork mob, but your standard run of the mill guard unit would probably break under a 16 BP barrage with disruption (or be quite close).  But like I said - you get this once, then your Vultures are effectively done.  I just wanted to throw this out, as I know it would probably be the hottest topic about doing things in this hardpoint manner. So what are your initial thoughts?
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Honda

Post subject: Valkyries and Vultures oh my.... Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:55 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

So what are your initial thoughts? "Ahem. Students? What is the source for the Elysian Drop Troop list?" "Imperial Armor Three Headmaster Honda"     Seriously, I can understand why one might want to add variants as you proposed, but Epic really isn't the place for this level of...let's say diversity for lack of a better term. That is better served at the 40K level. In Epic, weapon systems come with a set of options for the most part and you play with those options. There are exceptions, but it seems like they are in the minority. JMO, adding "hard points" increases list complexity (especially when it comes to testing) and I'm struggling to see where the value of doing so comes in. Once we get to a point where we have a pretty settled list, there will be an opportunity to add some of the other variants for Vulture/Valkyrie in a "Collectors" section (to borrow from nomenclature from the Tau list), but now isn't the time. Let's keep in mind that the list has only seen three games. Three. This means that we don't even know how the existing list performs on a regular basis with what we have now, let alone, adding other variables. So, let's strive to stay focussed on the task at hand, expand the level of testing and then after we've seen some duplicatable (pardon the non-English) results, look into the areas that need expanding. Also, joking aside, IA3 is the source book. We use it to define what the Elysians are. Should we stray from that guiding principle, then we weaken any argument/discussion based on why we did what we did. When people question the direction that the list has taken, we can always go back to the source and say, "This is why we did it that way". If you take the buffet approach to your list, then you only open up the door to questions whose answers have no sound basis other than, "Well that's the way we did it". I'm really not interested in going through that kind of debate for this subject. So, for better or worse, it's IA3. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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Cosmic Serpent	Post subject: Valkyries and Vultures oh my.... Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:32 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am Posts: 137 Location: Chicago	But the Valkyrie and the Vulture aren't in IA3 - they are in IA1.
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jfrazell	Post subject: Valkyries and Vultures oh my.... Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:38 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm Posts: 144	Does IA3 reference the types from IA1 at all.  You can link that way. _________________ "Advance to the Rear!"
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Honda	Post subject: Valkyries and Vultures oh my.... Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:40 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	But the Valkyrie and the Vulture aren't in IA3 - they are in IA1 Well, although the "fluff" pages and pictures are not in IA3, all of the vehicle gaming stats are in the Elysian list. Also, the Epic "alternate" stats for the Vulture/Valkyrie are in one of the IA3 Appendix. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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Cosmic Serpent	Post subject: Valkyries and Vultures oh my.... Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:52 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am Posts: 137 Location: Chicago	I'd personally actually be OK with using the IA3 epic variants listed - really I just want to be able to taylor the aircraft for specific missions - AT or AP type thing?
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Honda

Post subject: Valkyries and Vultures oh my.... Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:29 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

I'd personally actually be OK with using the IA3 epic variants listed - really I just want to be able to taylor the aircraft for specific missions - AT or AP type thing? I'm not saying that we won't take a look at that, but that isn't the burning issue right now. Getting the aircraft piece down is. So, let's keep a list of items of parking lot items that will be visited, but stay focused on getting this next version together. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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Tactica	Post subject: Valkyries and Vultures oh my.... Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:54 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	CosmS, Good thread and something that needs discussed. I think Valkyrie and Vulture variety precident from IA:3 as the vehicle has weapon load-out options in the Elysian list. So, if needed - I think we play this card. That said though, I'm on board with KISS. Multiple variants of Vulture and Valkyrie in the same list are a cause for headache amongst gamers. First, the weapons are basically "underwing" so from a glance, significant weapon modelling changes aren't really even going to be noticed - even if WYSIWYG was adhered to. Second, conversations of "My blue ones are this, my orange ones are this, and the orange ones with the blue weapons are that... etc" I really want to avoid this if we can. Third, if we are going to add in another weapon variant to an existing chassis design, we need a justifyable reason in doing so. With these opinions in mind, I can't help but say - go with what we know works, KISS, and avoid the headache conversations or conversion vehicle requirements. The existing vehicles have been proven. Since we don't have a proven nagging deficiency that a variant Vulture / Valkyrie would fill i.e. justification, then let's see if we can make the E:A precident units work. So, for what its worth - I'm 100% with Honda on this one. Cheers, _________________ Rob
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