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Elysian Infantry Units
Honda
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:36 pm 
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This topic is intended to support discussion on Elysian infantry units

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:05 am 
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As mentioned in another thread - I believe we are depicting the standard drop troop infantry incorrectly. ?We are taking into consideration the demolition charges, but we are increasing their close combat value (doesn't make sense in my mind, I know I wouldn't want a demo charge going off near me). ?

I believe these guys should have a CC value of 6+, and a FF value of 4+, or if we think that is too much, line item demo charges like plasma guns on the Stormtrooper profile. ?Personal preference is to increase the FF to 4+.
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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:15 am 
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Just went a looked at a few things.

In my opinion, the FF value (in terms of 40K stats) represents everything from about 24 inches to 1 inch (anything that is a ranged weapon of any sort).  That being said, demo charges have a range of 6 inches - and creates an ordanance blast template in 40k - something not intended for close combat (although due to scatter die, sometimes ends up being a little too close).
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Honda
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:12 pm 
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I believe these guys should have a CC value of 6+, and a FF value of 4+, or if we think that is too much, line item demo charges like plasma guns on the Stormtrooper profile.  Personal preference is to increase the FF to 4+.


Something else I would like everyone to take into consideration, if you put the demo attack in the FF value, then any drop company within 15cm and an assault will be able to lend supporting fire (i.e. tossing demo charges across football fields).

If the demo charge is in the CC category, then only those units in an engage and in base to base contact will be able to perform the demo attack.

Again, this seems to model a more realistic use of the demo charge to me vs. tossing them over the stadium.

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jfrazell
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:22 pm 
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Quote (Honda @ 14 Mar. 2006 (21:12))

I believe these guys should have a CC value of 6+, and a FF value of 4+, or if we think that is too much, line item demo charges like plasma guns on the Stormtrooper profile. ?Personal preference is to increase the FF to 4+.


Something else I would like everyone to take into consideration, if you put the demo attack in the FF value, then any drop company within 15cm and an assault will be able to lend supporting fire (i.e. tossing demo charges across football fields).

If the demo charge is in the CC category, then only those units in an engage and in base to base contact will be able to perform the demo attack.

Again, this seems to model a more realistic use of the demo charge to me vs. tossing them over the stadium.

Good reposte. That makes them as good as my guardians  :p

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:01 am 
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Good points, and I thought that as well - they do have limited range, but they do have range.  CC to me is exaclty that in my opinion - hand to hand fighting, whereas FF values represents anything in the ranged weapon category.  I think this one will be pretty contreversial - maybe we should investigate line iteming these like plasma guns on the storm troopers?  

At least that way you could in theory get something with a 5 cm range (although I've never seen anything with such a short range, so there is no precedence for that short of a range - and not sure we want to open that can of worms.)
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Tactica
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:57 am 
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IG - with exception of catachans, aren't big on hth combat... and even the catachan's don't do it very well, and they use lots of assault weapons, flamers, and demo charges before they go in too!

However, no IG really wants to be in base to base contact with the daemon prince. Its just bad odds.

A demo charge can be thrown 6" and can then scatter another 6" toward the enemy for a max range of 12". That's the same range as a rapid firing bolter, a pistol, or many other things in Epic that we give FF values for.

I think the Elyisians are going to want to stay out of CC and I think its unrealistic to see them charging in to fight chaos and bugs in H-t-h with demo charges. they would lob them as far as they could and withdraw under suppressing and covering fire.

Definitely a FF thing - even if artificially boosted in E:A terms of range. But what army doesn't have several weapons abstractly implimented on account of E:A's cm system and 15cm FF / engagement ranges?

Demo on FF is just a 'makes sense' kind of thing to me.

Cheers,

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:28 am 
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Yes, IG C/Cbt is not tactically the answer ...  :;):

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Honda
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:55 pm 
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So let me reiterate again, that if the demo charge moves to FF (which conceptually I am really struggling with), then anyone in support range will be able to toss these things from a distance into the support with a +4 to hit.

I am purposely ignoring the 40K mechanics as they are a struggle for me, even at that scale. I know, it's abstracted, however, that doesn't mean we have to wear the same shoes.

As John pointed out, this is the equivalent of making IG equal to Guardians in shooting. That feels wrong. Now, what would make me feel better about putting it into FF is if it had a range restriction (e.g. 5 cm). I think I could live with that, but I'm very concerned with the unintended circumstances of just putting in in FF as is.

More thoughts please...

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:15 am 
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Here's another way to look at a FF increase.  Way back when the White Dwarf article came out with the Elysians - it mentioned how they make use of Special Weapons Squads (prior to them existing for all guard units).  In my opinion, and fluff wise, Elysians make more use of these than most guard units.  Special weapons squads include demo charges, snipers, MM and flamers.

Lets also consider that Elysians have Cyclops units, and Tarantula units in their core list.  Maybe its the combination of all of these (higher proportion of special weapon squads, cyclops, tarantulas, and more demo charges than normal units get) is what give the Elysians a better FF value than most IG units.

I think if given the choice of increasing CC or FF values, most people would lean towards FF as guard and CC do not go hand in hand.  Even if we do decide to include it in the CC stat - I noticed you had the CC stat as 4+ - which is two better than most guard units - I think it would only increase it to a 5+ over a normal guard unit.
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Honda
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:56 am 
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I think if given the choice of increasing CC or FF values, most people would lean towards FF as guard and CC do not go hand in hand. ?Even if we do decide to include it in the CC stat - I noticed you had the CC stat as 4+ - which is two better than most guard units - I think it would only increase it to a 5+ over a normal guard unit.


Ok, +4 is too high, I'll make sure that it doesn't go that high, however, if the demo charge gets moved over to FF, then then standard IG already have that value if memory serves me correctly.

Might as well just drop the demo charge as it has no impact.

That doesn't feel right either. Let's face it, in 40K, if all of your infantry platoons show up with demo charges, that is a big deal. Maybe you can deal with it, maybe you can't. In either case, you do have something to think about.

Ignoring the attack isn't right either (don't you just love it when someone thinks aloud online  :/ )

So, three options:

a) +5 CC & +5 FF
b) +5 CC & +6 FF
c) Make same as regular IG infantry

In your court...

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:28 am 
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Normal guard units (if I recal correctly, don't have the book handy) are CC 6+ FF 5+

I would say our options are increase either one by a single point.

Options
a) CC 5+ FF 5+
b) CC 6+ FF 4+

As much as I don't like to say it - 4+ FF may be viewed as just too high as your standard space marine has a FF value of 4+, and I think people would agree your average space marine should pack more of a FF value than your average guardsman. ?Giving them CC 5+ and FF 5+ makes them close to the same as a Storm Trooper unit, minus the armor and I think from a balance standpoint that would be the way I am currently leaning.

On another note - if we did go with CC 5+ and FF 5+ I think our hardened vets would need to change.  

I would propose our vets being CC 5+ and FF 4+ or CC4+ and FF 5+, either way they would be a one point improvement over your standard guardsmen.  I also think they should retain their plasma gun stats in the same manner as the storm troopers.

Infantry seems to be shaping up in three ways - normal drop troops being a baseline stat - HV adding an armor point and either a CC or FF point improvement, and Storm Troopers being the cream of the crop with 5+ armor and 5+ CC and 4+ FF.  

I could easily see HV fitting in with 6+ armor, 5+ CC and 4+ FF - basically the same stats as a Storm Trooper, minus one point of armor (as their stats and equipment in 40K do reflect that - same access to special weapons, same 4 WS, only difference being armor).
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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:40 am 
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The more I think about it, the more I am liking the 5+ CC and 5+ FF value.  This gets us away from the demo charge range issue, makes supporting units not get that benefit of being able to throw demo charges a long way - an overall isn't so overbalancing as people would say - hey my super human space marine has the same stat even though his basic weapon is significantly better (in 40k terms).

I like where we are at with this.  Better than the average guardsmen, but not overpowering - and we can justify the increase.
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jfrazell
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:27 pm 
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At this point I would be supportive of the +1 to CC on those grounds, and a +1 to HV's in the FF category.

As an aside, did Elysians in IA3 have heavy weapons in their squads?

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Honda
 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:44 pm 
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As an aside, did Elysians in IA3 have heavy weapons in their squads?


Regular drop troops can get 1 x plasma gun, melta gun, flamer and a demo charge.

So long range shooting attacks go down as there's no missile launcher, autocannon, lascannon.

I'm feeling Ok with the +5 CC/+5 FF 0 Armor. It will be interesting to get the feedback from a larger community at some point.

Now, how about cost?

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