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Elysian Infantry Units

 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:34 pm 
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I'll have to do some math on the point issue - but at first glance I don't see any issues with the points - I thought they were pretty accurate, but I haven't actually sat down and worked the math of varouis other units in comparison etc.


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 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:32 am 
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Quote (jfrazell @ 16 Mar. 2006 (06:27))
At this point I would be supportive of the +1 to CC on those grounds, and a +1 to HV's in the FF category.

As an aside, did Elysians in IA3 have heavy weapons in their squads?

I could give it a try...

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 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:29 am 
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So, I wandered over to the SG Epic forums - and took a gander at the Catachan list - all I can say is wholly crap batman.

I like to think we have accurately reflected a relatively elite IG formation - but those guys are killer. ?Just curious as that list has been exposed to the world (personally no real interest in them, so never followed them) - but what were peoples reaction to that army list?

Their mortars come in units of four - and 2 BP per stand, for a whopping 8 BP barrages?

Their vets have a 5+ armor save, and 5+ CC, and a 4+ FF value? ?Their vets also have demo charges line itemed out (in addition to killer stats) with a AP4/AT4 and a 15 cm range?

Just my very humble opinion, but these guys are way tough - way too tough? ?I think we (that have been discussing Elysians) are very objective in our thoughts and ideas (we'd all love Elysians to be the biggest bunch of butt kickers out there - but not realistic, or fun). ?I think most people would agree that our support Sentinels should be tougher than the mortar teams - and we've been going back and forth about 4 BP being too powerful, but that seems to be half of what the Catachan mortar teams have.

Just thought this was interesting - so wanted to bring it up.






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 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:09 am 
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Just had another thought - all Elysian units have the Iron Discipline advantage, as they are supposed to have very good leaders and resistant to pinning and easier regrouping.  

My thought was trying to reflect this in Epic - and I'm going to throw out a couple different options.

Option 1 - have them require one additional blast marker than normal to break the unit (ie - you would need a number of markers equal to number of stands +1).  This would reflect them being harder to break - and most people probably wouldn't complain too much on this - especially since we have smaller units than most others.  We could even raise this higher if people thought this was a good idea.

Option 2 - Elysians have a +1 to their role to regroup, or we could just say they ignore the modifier for having any blast markers when trying to regroup?  

Maybe a combination of both - not sure what would be too much?

Just a thought, but again, it seems core to the IA3 list, and the fluff always talks about how experienced they are and how they have very well trained and disciplined leadership - seems this should be reflected somehow.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:23 am 
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Quote (Cosmic Serpent @ 16 Mar. 2006 (21:09))



I don't think you can really give the catachan list any credance for basis of stats. Its a fan list that best I can tell was posted as a favor by the specialist games guys - nothing that's really considered balanced or tested IMHO.

That being said, i think demo charges are a bit under represented in the Elysian list considering how much they rely on them and how little heavy weapons they have.

I still think demo charges should be reflected in the FF value and not the CC value. Even if it was something like every other stand has +1 FF value. So base stat is CC6+ and FF5+... 10 stands in combat. 5 stands are at FF 5+ and the other 5 are at FF4+. would be simple enough.

Just talking out loud though... so ignore me, I'm happy to try the CC5+ and the FF5+. I just don't like it. :p

Just had another thought - all Elysian units have the Iron Discipline advantage, as they are supposed to have very good leaders and resistant to pinning and easier regrouping. ?



Option 1 - have them require one additional blast marker than normal to break the unit (ie - you would need a number of markers equal to number of stands +1).

Hmm... A quick mental assesment of possibilities...

I think this is less powerful than ATSKNF or Spirit Stones or Leader. That's a good thing.

I think its an interesting idea as it is in line with the 40K iron discipline rule... I'll explain in a moment.

Option 2 - Elysians have a +1 to their role to regroup,

I don't think this is really in line with the 40K iron discipline rule... but the inverse might be below... I'll explain in a moment.

[essentially your Option 3 -] or we could just say they ignore the modifier for having any blast markers when trying to regroup? ?
Interesting thought - but there's no negative to 'regroup' for having blast markers. The negative is from enemy close or being broken. Even if you fail to activate and do a hold - you can now regroup. Now if you are broken or have enemy nearby in the end phase, then you may have -2 or -1 (or both) as appropriate.

Maybe a combination of both - not sure what would be too much?

Just a thought, but again, it seems core to the IA3 list, and the fluff always talks about how experienced they are and how they have very well trained and disciplined leadership - seems this should be reflected somehow.


It should be reflected I agree. This obviously directly affects BM management. Something we all know to be crucial to each list out there.

So you got me thinking.... first, the source. Iron discipline in 40K is 1) unmodified LD tests and 2) may rally when below 50% unit strength if broken.

Generically, that means two things:
1) harder to break from a hail of fire, ordinance, and sniping
2) may rally even in the most dire of battle circumstances

So how to reflect those two generic things in E:A from an Elysian Iron Discipline rule without going over the top.

First, I like the 1 extra blast marker than normal to break. Its simple, easy to calculate, and nice little bonus reflecting 'harder to break' than normal. Perfect.

Second, this is the more powerful and 'meatier' ability. I would say something like, an Elysian's chance to regroup will never get worse than a 3+, regardless of negaives. So I would propose:

ELYSIAN SPECIAL RULE

Iron Discipline


Elysian Drop Troops are battle hardened, have a strengthened resolve, and adhere to battle doctrine with an Iron Discipline. This means they have a stronger moral compass on the battlefield and will remain steadfast under a withering hail of fire. Even when they've appeared to break, Elysians are simply making a tactical withdrawl to a calculated predetermined location.

Any formation containing at least one unit with Iron Discipline will require 1 additional blast marker beyond the norm in order to break and if the formation attempts to regroup, they will never apply more than a single -1 modifer, regardless of enemy proximity or broken status. The formation may be suppressed as normal.


anyway - just a thought. :)




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 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:18 am 
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I was thinking of the action test modifier by mistake - but that does bring up another option

Option C - what about reducing the -1 modifier to action tests for having a blast marker for Elysians with Iron Discipline?

Just another thought.

Building on what you said, maybe just a reduce the formation broken modifier from -2 to -1, not as powerful - but another option.

Sounds like we have a lot of options to represent this rule, all of which I think are good.  Lets see what everyone else has to say on the idea?

Thoughts guys?  What options do you like/dislike most?


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 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:24 am 
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Speaking of special Elysian rules - I think having Iron Discipline as our "special rule" similiar to what the Siege Masters have - but are we planning to include the Commissars rule as well?


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 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:57 pm 
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Speaking of special Elysian rules - I think having Iron Discipline as our "special rule" similiar to what the Siege Masters have - but are we planning to include the Commissars rule as well?


First off, I'm cogitating on the Iron Discipline proposals. I like the idea of list having something related to this attribute.

In regards to the above, the Elysians do use the Commissars rule. It was in the general text of v1, but I didn't get it in there this time, I guess.

John, add the Iron Discipline to the list for 2.1.5.

Great ideas guys!

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 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:48 pm 
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The options just keep coming for this one.

If we wanted to use something that already existed, we could just give all Elysian units the Leadership ability.  We could write up some text - something to the effect of:

All Elysian units are considered to have the leadership ability,which results in an extra blast marker being removed....

It is a rule that already exists - that we could potentially leverage if you wanted to go with the thought of using and existing rule in place of creating our own.

Just another thought.


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 Post subject: Elysian Infantry Units
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:20 pm 
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CosmS,

I thought about Leadership when righting the proposal on the bottom of page 2.

The reason I stayed away from that is this. IG still don't follow orders really well. To have iron discipline is one thing, but to always do what you are told is another.

IG are known for being 'thier own thinkers' - for better and many times 'worse'.

Its the commissars that keep the troops in line with the generals plans. That's a very good thing for IG - I say leave the "LEADER" ability there on the commissars.

So allowing them to accumulate the BM even with Iron Discipline means activations are still going to be impacted, and unless they have a comissar, they are still going to accumulate the BM so will fail activations just as often as SL IG. I think that's a good balance that we don't want to mess with.

I like the two bonus' I proposed for Iron Discipline on the bottom of page 2 because 1) just says it takes one more than normal BM to break the formation. Its not over the top and gives a feeling of 'we're a little better than the average IG bob' (or more fool-hearted - depending upon your perspective) and the 2) only comes into play if you are broken - which means things have already taken a turn for the worse for that formation.

I think they both work to accurately reflect what the doctrine of Iron Discipline stands for - without getting into the issues created from Eldar Spirit Stones (Leader on every formation). I definitely think we want to stay away from that one.

Additionally, an army special rule is not out of the question here. This is something very specific to IG Cadians and Elysians. Its something that is definitely warranted by a human elite front line force not only in fluff, but also in IA3 core game reference.

Finally, if given to our 3 man sentinel squadrons, it will also solve that problem. It will make them require 4 BM to break, so if they are fired on and lose one - you'll have two units remaining with 2 BM - and they will require one more to actually break. This will allow us to give each sentinel 1 BP without the formation going over the top.

So in my mind, the proposal at the bottom of page 2 here is win/win/win.

Cheers,

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