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BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
Tactica
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:50 pm 
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Turn 3






I'm having hard time following you here. From the picture, it looks like the bikes moved to engage Drop 2 - the the distance seems so far that they couldn't really 'engage' them.

I'm not really sure where Drop 1 is in the picture at this point.

All that aside however, I'm thinking your question is - if unit A assaults unit B's scout elements and the main compoent of unit B is out of range to participate in the combat - what happens?

Is that true?

Perhaps you could elaborate on the question a bit and I'll be happy to reply.

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Tactica
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:53 pm 
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Still in turn 3...

The Elysians opt not to retain and hand over the turn to the Orks. The Orks (singing, ?Itz now er neva!?) opt to single and unload their weapons on Drop-1. The Ork Unbelievably ?Uge mob scores 10 hits, only four are save (due to being in the woods), breaking Drop-1.


I think I'm beginning to see what happened here. You treated the sentinels that were part of this formation as a seperate formation all otgether perhaps. Drop 1 should have lost more models to the bike assalt win as they lost that combat. At minimum, they should have been broken. I think that's what you are talking about... anyway, more info on the underlying question would be helpful here.

Maybe the uge mob wouldn't have had to fire on the Drop 1 here at all... hmm...

Cheers,

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Tactica
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:01 pm 
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End of Turn Three

So, if we look at the scenario conditions, the Orks have cleared the bridge from any zones of control, but if I add in the GT scoring, it looks like a 0-0 score, indicating that a fourth turn should be played.

What I find interesting is that the Orks have pushed deeply into the Elysian side of the board, but are quickly running out of units to sustain the push. From the Elysian perspective, all the ?one shot? wonder weapons are gone and the only units capable of counter-attacking with some degree of effectiveness are Stormtrooper-1 and the RHQ, although the Vultures and Thunderbolts are still somewhat potent.

The next turn should be quite interesting.


I think this is a meaningful observation.

IG / Elysians aircraft do have some one shot wonder weapons which must be managed to last throughout the battle. IGs lack of armor (don't know about Elysians actually though) should become a factor. The Orks are in a very similar situation. Orcs are meant to hit hard and plow through. Elysians are designed as a strike force more than a break through force.

What we are seeing play out is the fact that attrition takes its toll on both forces in different ways.

One thing you should not overlook in your assessment is the negligable impact the expensive stompa mob is having on the formation. I think an attempt should have been made to bring them up to the forefront early on. They were a critical fighting element that can absorb a tremendous amount of damage - especially in the absense of a significant amount of long range MW/TK weapon systems. Guarding the blitz in a game where the mid field bridge is the key seems a bit wasteful. The Elysians are throwing everything they have at a fraction of the the orc horde as a result.

Turn 4 will definitely be interesting.

I've really enjoyed the report thus far Honda!

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Honda
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:07 am 
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I think I'm beginning to see what happened here. You treated the sentinels that were part of this formation as a seperate formation all otgether perhaps. Drop 1 should have lost more models to the bike assalt win as they lost that combat. At minimum, they should have been broken. I think that's what you are talking about... anyway, more info on the underlying question would be helpful here.


Yes, this is where I think I went wrong. If the sentinels are at max scout range then the extra hits that occurred should still have floated over to Drop-1. Correct?

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Tactica
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:19 am 
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Honda,

Yes, 'extra hits' from combat resolution are applied 'as per shooting' so anyone - even those outside of the 15cm range can suffer that damage.

However, your sentinels would have been stronger than 4 units too. So maybe that would have reduced or even changed the result as the sentinel / Drop 1 formation would have had more models overall. Don't know if that would have made a difference.

I'm looking forward to giving your list a try btw... the sooner you can get this into a word/ excell/ pdf the better! ;)

This will also give me a reason to buy 4 more valkyries + 8 storm troopers and 4 more vultures (as I've been wanting to do that anyway for my steel legion!)

cheers,

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Honda
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:44 pm 
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CAP for me is one of those losing propositions in the current system. Its easy to 'draw' the CAP air formation into your flak field of fire if you hold out. Better to Intercept from my experience.


So I found this statement interesting. Our local group has been holding off on aerospace until just recently, however our Ork player already has 3 squadrons of fighta-bommas.

So if I understand you correctly, in that kind of a situation, if you went first on any given turn, you would not put your aircraft on CAP, you'd let the Ork player attack you first and save your activations for later?

Enlighten me.   :/

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- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Honda
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:48 pm 
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Turn Four


Ok, the Elysians don?t have anything left to teleport in so off we go to the strategy roll. ?Two sixes are rolled so the Orks go first. Not good for the Big E.

The big mob rolls a 1 to engage, but that is enough, so they pile into the Regimental HQ, all nicely lined up like they are on parade. The Orks hit hard and dish out 9 hits (eight of which are MW), to the Elysians 4 hits. The Orks end up with 15 (roll 5 +10) to the Elysians 11 (roll 6 +5) and in the ensuing pursuit, the RHQ are wiped out. The Orks consolidate back to the bridge and are now 17 strong.

The Orks then attempt to sustain on Stormtrooper-1 with the Gunz mob and roll a 6. More good news. After the smoke has cleared, Stormtrooper-1 is completely wiped out.

The Elysians are now in critical condition. In an attempt to exact some measure of revenge, the Vultures activate and single over to the ?Uge mob and shoot, causing two kills (now 15 strong) after saves and placing three blast markers (8 total).

The Stompas double up the road and position themselves for a possible fifth turn.

The Elysians get vindictive and decide to break the ?Uge mob. Drop-1 singles up closer to the mob and gets 1 kill and places two BM (14 strong, 9 BM).

The Orks double the remnants of Blitz-2 over to the bridge. The rest of the moves are now the Elysians.

The single Thunderbolt activates and kills 1 and places two BM (13 strong, 10 BM). The second Thunderbolt squadron activates and kills 1 and places two BM (12 strong, 12 BM), breaking the unit. However, as it appears that there won?t be any ground units to close within 15cm or 30cm when rallying is checked, the ?Uge mob decides to stay on the bridge.

All that is left for the Elysians now is to see if they can remove the last two bikes in the Bike mob. They roll a definitive ONE and do not activate. Since my Supreme Commander was eliminated, I do not get to reroll.

The bikes do not rally, but everything else does on the Ork side.

After Action Report

Final Results


Well, very interesting. I liked how the Elysians felt on the field. They are obviously fairly fragile, as I would expect of an airborne/airmobile force.

Game snafu?s aside, I think I got a reasonable result from the fight. The Elysians are well and truly spent, though it was fairly close there at the end. Not getting to go first on the last turn, thus causing the death of the Regimental HQ was painful. Also the Gunz wiping out the Stormtrooper unit hurt as well.

However, with those two units, I felt like I had enough stuff left over to take the big mob on and possible hold the bridge, so vagaries of the dice aside, I think the Elysians had a chance to win and that is what I wanted to find out.

One of the things I want to test out is whether or not the Elysians Strategy should be +3. The fluff reasoning behind this is that they are a cut above regular IG and in the Taros campaign, did strike where the Tau did not expect, even though the Tau had done a fairly good job of anticipating what the IG ground forces were going to do. So perhaps it might be justified.

I?d be interested in what others think.

Anyway, it was fun and I?ll do another one of these before too long, but as I am about to start building the Elysians, I don?t know if the next map exercise will come before or after a real game.

Also, I?d be interested in what opponent others think the next exercise should be against.

Cheers,

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"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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dptdexys
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:23 pm 
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Quote (Hena @ 21 Feb. 2006 (04:47))
Quote (Tactica @ 21 Feb. 2006 (04:19))
Honda,

Yes, 'extra hits' from combat resolution are applied 'as per shooting' so anyone - even those outside of the 15cm range can suffer that damage.

However, your sentinels would have been stronger than 4 units too. So maybe that would have reduced or even changed the result as the sentinel / Drop 1 formation would have had more models overall. Don't know if that would have made a difference.

No. The combat resolution hits are assigned same as other in assault. So only those within 15cm from winners models can be hit.

The Rulebook in page 27 said
1.12.8 Loser Withdraws
If the loser was already broken when it was assaulted then
the whole formation is destroyed, and ALL units in the
formation are removed from play as casualties. If the losing
formation is not broken then it becomes broken and may
withdraw (see 1.13.3). In addition, the losing formation
suffers a number of extra hits equal to the difference
between the two sides? result scores. There are no saves for
these hits, which represent units being hacked down as
they turn and run, or disintegrating into a panic-driven
rout as they flee. Remove these additional casualties as you
would for hits inflicted in the assault itself (ie, units in base
contact first, then those closest to the enemy etc).

I thought Jervis had confirmed that hits/kills from combat resolution do carry on to units past the 15cm FF range .

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dptdexys
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:31 pm 
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Heres the post that I was refering to.

http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic....ID=6661
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Honda
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:38 pm 
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@dptdexys

Oh well, I guess I futzed that up. I don't think in the long run that it impacted the result of the game as the Big mob was primarily concerned with controlling the bridge.

However, that is good information to know.

Being primarily a Tau player, all this HtH stuff is pretty new to me. My guys don't usually last much longer than the first slap in the face.   :/

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

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dptdexys
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:17 pm 
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All of the SGs forums are having problems at the minute try again later.


The group I play in also used to play as you said ,not carrying the extra hits past 15 cm and were very surprised when Jervis ?gave this reply,But if this is the way Jervis intended then so be it.
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Tactica
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:56 pm 
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Quote (Hena @ 20 Feb. 2006 (22:47))
Quote (Tactica @ 21 Feb. 2006 (04:19))
Honda,

Yes, 'extra hits' from combat resolution are applied 'as per shooting' so anyone - even those outside of the 15cm range can suffer that damage.

However, your sentinels would have been stronger than 4 units too. So maybe that would have reduced or even changed the result as the sentinel / Drop 1 formation would have had more models overall. Don't know if that would have made a difference.

No. The combat resolution hits are assigned same as other in assault. So only those within 15cm from winners models can be hit.

The Rulebook in page 27 said
1.12.8 Loser Withdraws
If the loser was already broken when it was assaulted then
the whole formation is destroyed, and ALL units in the
formation are removed from play as casualties. If the losing
formation is not broken then it becomes broken and may
withdraw (see 1.13.3). In addition, the losing formation
suffers a number of extra hits equal to the difference
between the two sides? result scores. There are no saves for
these hits, which represent units being hacked down as
they turn and run, or disintegrating into a panic-driven
rout as they flee. Remove these additional casualties as you
would for hits inflicted in the assault itself (ie, units in base
contact first, then those closest to the enemy etc).

Hena,

I believe JJ clarified this.

"After" combat is combat resolution and thus hits are distributed as shooting.

I'll have to go research... I could swear this was established and basically erratta... hmm...

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Tactica
 Post subject: BATREP: Elysians vs. Orks, 2700 pts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:08 pm 
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Quote (Honda @ 21 Feb. 2006 (06:44))

CAP for me is one of those losing propositions in the current system. Its easy to 'draw' the CAP air formation into your flak field of fire if you hold out. Better to Intercept from my experience.


So I found this statement interesting. Our local group has been holding off on aerospace until just recently, however our Ork player already has 3 squadrons of fighta-bommas.

So if I understand you correctly, in that kind of a situation, if you went first on any given turn, you would not put your aircraft on CAP, you'd let the Ork player attack you first and save your activations for later?

Enlighten me. ? :/

Honda,

You got it.

CAP puts you at a negative in the current system.

Player-IG with Thunderbolts on CAP.

Player-BL takes notice of his own FLAK formation umbrellas. He notices how close the Thunderbolts will need to get in order to get their AA shots in range of the helltallons.

Player-BL activates with Helltallons for ground attack vs. IG formation Regimental HQ. He position's his approach and makes sure he keeps his BL Helltallons in such a way that the Thunderbolts will have to enter the Chaos Flak umbrella of 3 shot Obliterator ground formations! The Helltallons do not fire after they've finished their approach...

Player IG with thunderbolts now says "CAP!" and approaches for intercept due to CAP, but does not fire...

Now, plane movement - resolve, last in, first out...

The IG plane was the last thing to move... so it is dealt with FIRST (Thank you CAP)...

1) BL ground flak fires at the Thunderbolts with AA.

IF the Thunderbolts survived...

2) BL Helltallon now fires at the Thunderbolts with AA.

Now - the IG response...

3) IG Flak fires at the Helltalons

Again, if the Helltallons survived (and their are still Thunderbolts around...)

4) Thunderbolts CAP attack on the Helltallons

Again, if the Helltallons still survived...

5) Helltallons ground attack vs. the Regimental HQ.

In disengagement, both can again be shot down.

You'll notice it was the BL player that controlled the field though. It was not the CAP player that controlled the field.

The Black Legion player can be very coy about how he sets up his AA and then ground assault causing the CAP to trigger.

Therefore, CAP is a very bad proposition in many if not MOST cases.

That's my take anyway Honda,

Cheers,

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