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State of the Guard?

 Post subject: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:22 am 
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What is the current state of the army lists? Which is the next army to be approved? And what are the current states on any of the VTOL lists (Mirali Sky Raiders, Harakoni Warhawks, Mobile Forces of Catachan, Deathworld Veterans (?), Elysia,...)?

Is there any plan on perhaps using the EpicUK airborne list as a base?

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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:13 am 
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Looks like the airborne lists all ran out of steam some time ago. The UK list wouldn't be a bad place to start, it's ok if a bit restrictive in terms of what you can take.

Some extra units would probably be a nice addition, but the trick i think is to avoid it just becoming a guard list with the core units swapped around a bit. It's difficult however given there aren't many thematically viable options to add other than perhaps a few extra variants of valks such as the punisher.


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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:02 am 
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It's been many years since the Net-EA versions of such airborne lists have been developed as people moved on. Having multiple versions of similar lists rather than one combined list probably didn't help.

The Epic-UK version is underpowered though (22% win rate and 44% losses) and I've heard anecdotally isn't that fun to play, as it's quite one dimensional and reliant on the early game one shot barrages doing well to win.

It's a shame the Epic-UK list doesn't include the Taurox (fast attack light vehicle with twin lascannon) and the Sky Talon that transports it. That could add a bit more punch and flexibility to the list and there's excellent proxies for them sold by Vanguard (see here). Though I think other tweaks / boosts to the list would be a good idea too.
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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:43 am 
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So perhaps an amalgam of all those lists, identifying strength and weaknesses should provide some insight? Then go on and creating one single air cav list?

Whats the rest of EpicUK thinking on that matter?
Perhaps one should think of what actually makes the regular Guard list viable in the first place: good ways to place BM, resilient, big formations and mobile elements to engange other formations. And thats something all lists need to be playable/fun

Edit: at least with sr2

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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:36 am 
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GlynG wrote:
It's been many years since the Net-EA versions of such airborne lists have been developed as people moved on. Having multiple versions of similar lists rather than one combined list probably didn't help.

The Epic-UK version is underpowered though (22% win rate and 44% losses) and I've heard anecdotally isn't that fun to play, as it's quite one dimensional and reliant on the early game one shot barrages doing well to win.

It's a shame the Epic-UK list doesn't include the Taurox (fast attack light vehicle with twin lascannon) and the Sky Talon that transports it. That could add a bit more punch and flexibility to the list and there's excellent proxies for them sold by Vanguard (see here). Though I think other tweaks / boosts to the list would be a good idea too.
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A couple more units in the Vanaheim list would probably be a good thing as long as it didn't take away from the theme.
I would take issue with the other points though, if you look player by player their winning % with the list aren't out of sync with their winning % with other lists. Its certainly not a list you can play without practice but I don't think its underpowered. I'm also unconvinced that its not fun to play with, I definitely didn't find that the case, regarding the alpha strike with the vultures using them too early is a fatal mistake. The list need to stall, use its air power, movement and scouts to out move the enemy so it can make best use of the hellstrikes and assault with support

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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:05 am 
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Thanks for that Steve. I was commenting second-hand based on someone else's experiences with the list and haven't used it myself yet (I lack the models).


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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:12 am 
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Perhaps just take the vanaheim list, add sky talons, tauros (both variants), Vulture Punishers and be done? Overall I actually like the vanaheim list, especially the flying Sentinels look like fun

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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:15 am 
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You'd be pretty much there i think at that point, there's not a whole heap you can add to the list, but those would all be reasonable i think.


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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:16 am 
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Oh, how many playtests does it take to get a list approved?


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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:28 am 
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6+ playtest reports online from 3+ different gaming groups is the criteria I believe. These need to be versus existing approved lists though I think they're a bit more relaxed these days and allow some versus Epic-UK lists to count (not certain on this bit).


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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:41 am 
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I'd suggest perhaps something like this statline for a tauros btw:

Type: AV, Save 6+, Move 30cm, FF6+, CC6+ Option of either lascannon (5+ AT 45cm range) or Stinger missile (AA 5+, 30cm range*) , Special Rules: Scout.

*technically i think the model has a mortar on it, but i think it could be argued it could be a small missile launcher instead, and would fill a useful gap in the list then.

I think if you'd prefer it as an LV it's save needs to go up. A 6+ save on an LV is just madness. I'd probably have it at least as a 5+ if it was an LV.


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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:50 am 
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Oh, and punisher stats need to be better - no-ones going to take it (especially at a points premium) if all it does is shoot up infantry at a relatively close range.


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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:46 pm 
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It's got a twin lascannon, not just one and I'd much rather stick with the weapons GW actually has the unit with than invent an AA weapon. The options are either some large grenade launcher or a heavy flamer. I think the heavy flamer is the better choice to go with as a twin las alternative as it would have the same to hit and also a boost to firefight (I'd give the unit an alternative boosted FF value if it takes the flamer, which could be mentioned in the units notes as with other such units).


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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:07 pm 
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I can not comment much on the other VTOL lists, but I do like the Vanaheim list. I would say that it is slightly restrictive with the core formations being as expensive as they are. However, if you drop two stands and a transport off the formations they are too good with the relevant price drop/increase number of formations.

The biggest weakness of the list is lack of ground based AA. IMHO, this is something a player has to deal with rather than look to have a unit come in and fix it. I would more look at boosting the Thunderbolts to 3no. in the list.

However adding Taurox in as a different type of scout is do able

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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:18 pm 
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I am with Richard there, I would go for a similar approach.

Proposing stats for the Tauros Venator:
Type: AV, Save 6+, Move 25cm, FF6+, CC6+
Twin-Linked Lascannon AT4+, 45cm Range
OR
Twin Flak Autocannon 30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+ (That is the Sabre Plattform-gun)
Notes: Scout

The Flak Option may come with a higher price tag. They are a bit better in every aspect than sentinels.

Formation:
4 Tauros Venator (Las) at 150 Pts. May buy 4 Valkyrie Skytalons at 150 Pts

Valkyrie Skytalon
AV 35cm Arm 5+ FF 6+ CC 6+
Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+
2x Rocket Pods 30cm 1BP, Disrupt, One-Shot
Notes: Scout, Skimmer, Transport. May transport two Sentinels (of any kind) or a Tauros Venator

Vulture Punisher
AV 35cm Arm 5+ FF 4+ CC 6+
Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+
2x Punisher Gatlings 45cm 2x AP3+/AT5+

Formation: Regular Vulture Formation, swap at 0 pts, any combination possible.

Modification to existing formation: Sentinels gain the option to add Sky Talons instead of regular Valkyries. Add two Talons for 75 pts, making the "moving meltas" much more appealing than ground slogging

Modification to existing formation: Thunderbolts may be expanded to a formation of up to four, paying 75 per extra Thunderbolt. Likewise with Lightnings.
The two "new" mentioned formations would go into SUPPORT of course.

edit: A small note on the Punisher. THey are actually still comparable to a warhound with double Vulcan Mega Bolter - but without Reinforced 5+, without Void Shields and without beeing a WE. On the other hand they are scouts. So I guess that kinda works out? Perhaps increase the AT Value to 4+? Or reduce the shots from 4 to 3 and add Disrupt? I would still take the 120cm version at the moment, to be honest. Even though the Punisher has much more style... :eh

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