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Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.

 Post subject: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:52 am 
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There have been some pretty cool developments for the guard that forgeworld have implemented, that have epic models or proxies, but no real list. The crassus transport, the dominus bombard, the Macharius omega and the praetor launcher are a few examples of these.

I'm lucky enough to have some models in my collection that can be used as these, so have come up with a list that allows me to do so. I'm not the most experienced player in the world, and I have struggled with trying to find balance, but have had a crack anyway.

I'm at the point now where I'd like to play a couple of games, so would appreciate some input from you all.

How would you feel about using this list?
Have I nerfed it too much, or not enough?
How would you feel about going up against it?
Is it a hopeless joke; or does it contain some hidden broken combos?
How will it play? Will it be fun or boring to play with and against?

I've tried to maintain the flavour of a heavy mechanised assault, but have taken out some of the more powerful guard and allies toys, in an attempt to balance the fact that you can potentially take a lot of reinforced armour war engines (dc2, but still war engines).

I'm not experienced enough at list building to know if I went too far, or not far enough.

Some commentary on the units and formations:
- The companies are basically a cross between steel legion and death korps, with the infantry being steel legion clones, and the crassus being a "gorgon-lite".
- The war engine tanks and artillery are support formations, to limit their spammability a little.
- There is a deliberate limitation on tk and macro weapons. Perhaps too much...
- The praetor formation is basically 2x manticore formations. The dominus formation is basically 2x bombard formations.
- I have kept the titan allies in, but limited the warhounds to pairs, and replaced their plasma blast guns with inferno guns to reduce the mw shooting available.

So if you have a chance I would appreciate some feedback, and welcome constructive criticism. :D

Cheers Mat

Edit. Version 0.8 is attached. Now with less wtf.


Attachments:
File comment: Revised points and stats on most 2dc we's
IG_heavy_mech_0.8.pdf [75.17 KiB]
Downloaded 69 times

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Last edited by Matty_C on Sat May 13, 2017 5:18 am, edited 7 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:17 am 
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The things that stand out are
-Crassus can carry 30 infantry so 6 stands. The infantry company should be sized down to 11 guard and 1 commander.
-I'd give the Omega a change to hit close units (5cm) on a crit since the plasma container is notorious for doing exactly that
-The Dominus carries 3 bombard cannons. You've got the stats for a single one so something needs adjustments. It's always a troublesome unit being so crazy so perhaps a weapon boost in BP OR a single attack but removing Slow Fire (representing each turn one of those cannons is able to fire)? Another thought is three single attacks but that's ugly too. No matter what, I'd do a formation of 2, not 3 as that's 6DC RA artillery that's hard to supress.
-I'm less enthused about Mach chassis vehicles versus the other non-represented Baneblade types and Leman Russes. Not any balance issue, just more that I need an excuse to kitbsah Leman Russ Eradicators and Banehammers ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:41 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback jimmy.
Good call on the Omega. I'll update the crit to add in an explosive demise.
The Crassus has a capacity of 35 men, so can carry seven bases.
With the dominus I went with a bombards gun without the slow firing. It felt reasonable without being too over the top.
I'll have a think about the formation size. My thinking was along the lines of "guard tanks come in formations of three" but yeah, there is a bit to consider. I figured that having them difficult to suppress wasn't too over the top given the lack of death strikes, single warhounds and shadowswords that most guard armies seem to take.

Thanks again for the feedback.
:)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:13 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
Good call on the Omega. I'll update the crit to add in an explosive demise.

Woon't stop me from taking them. Luv me some zappy plasma :D

Matty_C wrote:
The Crassus has a capacity of 35 men, so can carry seven bases.

Ahhh just opened my copy of DoM and yeah you're right; 35 men. I'll blame it on the pre-coffee

Matty_C wrote:
With the dominus I went with a bombards gun without the slow firing. It felt reasonable without being too over the top.

Yeah I think that's a good compromise. Like I said, it's a really tricky weapon to not go bonkers with. Yes it can shoot three shells but also a weapon has limited ammo capacity so it all get's abstracted away well as you've got it I think.

Matty_C wrote:
I'll have a think about the formation size. My thinking was along the lines of "guard tanks come in formations of three" but yeah, there is a bit to consider. I figured that having them difficult to suppress wasn't too over the top given the lack of death strikes, single warhounds and shadowswords that most guard armies seem to take.

isn't that more the issue about the other lists and the OTT +1 that is prevalent in more recent lists? ;) The fact I can take 12 shadowswords as a list and 30 unit DKoK companies (thank you Matt for killing that dead) is bullshit.


This is a fun list.

Something also to consider is that there's an option to load AA missiles on the Praetor. Fitting that in somehow as an upgrade instead of hydras might be fun too.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:34 pm 
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I love the theme and I love the Crassus so I will take a look as soon as I have some time :D

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:10 am 
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@Bruno, looking forward to some feedback mate. The more the better! :)

Thanks again for the feedback Jimmy.
I did consider the Praetor Pilum warheads, but they have such a long range (the same as the other warheads) and seemed pretty difficult to balance. So the hydras were an easy cop-out! :D
However you are right. They need to be in this list, so I'll have a go at them and drop the hydras.

If I can come up with something that will score less aa hits than a hydra formation, at a longer range (but not the table covering 120cm), for similar points that might be the go.

Something like:
Praetor Sky Killer
WE (dc2) 15cm 4+RA cc6+ ff5+. Pilum warheads r60cm 3x aa4+ (plus two heavy bolters)
150 points for a support formation of 1.
It has a pretty big aa umbrella, but is doing 1.5 hits (on average) when it shoots, compared to to two for the three hydras, and 1.5 for the krieg aa gun. The hydras have a range of 45 and move of 30 (so the same 75cm "move once and aa"), and the aa guns 60cm with emplacements or Trojans (80cm "move once and aa"); so in comparison it is slow moving, well armoured and relatively balanced I think. Plus the hydra autocannons have AT and AP attacks (plus one more heavy bolter in a squadron. Can't forget that :D).
So harder to kill, similar aa and worse against ground targets.

Another option would be to increase the warheads range, possibly tone them down, and increase the points. I think the first option is the better one (3x 60cm aa4+), as longer range aa requires less thought (and tactical ability) to use, and isn't much fun to go up against.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:09 pm 
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I'm thinking even shorter as suppression is harder but lets test it it first. That's the trade off for slow but really tough weapons. Also unlike hydras, making them eat up a support slot as an upgrade vs a detachment is good as then you're in the excellent tradeoff /balancing game that makes lists thematic. Every list has a weakness, right? :)

So glad to finally use mine as actual praetor instead of counts as death strike.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:28 pm 
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About the Crassus: it costs almost as much as the Gorgon, but the later is so much better. A DC2 transport WE is going to be the primary target of every TK1d3 weapon in the game.

Is it as fast as an Ork Battlefortress?? 25cm seems quite fast for that bulky chassis. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:05 am 
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Yeah pretty much.

"The Crassus' drive system is considerably more powerful than other vehicles its size. This was designed to not only cope with its additional armour, but also to provide its driver with the speeder to deliver the vehicle's human cargo to its destination under heavy enemy fire, and then move to a safer position to await their extraction. As such its weapons are primary used for defensive role" -IA Vol1, 2nd Edition

It also has the Overdrive rules in 40k. That's really the reason for the vehicle then. It's super zippy for a sht but therefore less dc.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:30 am 
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What he said. Special rules to make it fast for a super heavy. Costed appropriately.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:02 am 
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Cool list Matty,

We were chatting about something similar last year but never got around to it. Have you considered making it a "Cadian 6th Armoured Regt" list out of IA11?

I like the Praetor and Dominus and they look ok at first glance, definitely see the bombard cannon working better on a 4+RA 2DC platform than it does on the current bombard. I would consider both moving at 20cm though as there isn't fluff that I can see making them slower than leman russes etc. True they don't have the "overdrive" of the Crassus but they still share a faster than normal SHT chassis.

For the praetor AA variant, might i recommend a single 60 or even 75cm AA3+ shot? (essentially a giant hunter) Whilst it can put out a bunch of missiles, lets just say they all have be locked onto one AC each time it fires, so its likely to hit a single target well, if its multiple AC you want to defend against then you'll need hydra to sweep the skies. Alternatively, since it is a WE, consider a fire arc on it so if you don't position it well its arc will only protect part of the battlefield.

I think you could allow single SHTs as a support formation, they're pretty common across the IG/AM but clearly don't have to be a core choice in all armies.

Finally I would recommend allowing chimera as a transport option or replacing the infantry company without transport for an option of one in chimeras, because that will still focus the list down the mech inf side of things with a focus on Praetor, Dominus, Macharius support. I'd suggest you don't limit other transport options too severely because remember not everyone will be able to access/convert models required for this list, so too restrictive core choices will limit playtesters.

Overall thanks for your efforts so far. I will hopefully be able to offer some test data on this in the new year.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:58 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
What he said. Special rules to make it fast for a super heavy. Costed appropriately.


Ehm, no. Gorgons are much better (walker instead of 25cm speed seems fair, but the massive boost of DC3) for the same price.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:14 am 
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So you're saying 25 point drop then, eh? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:31 pm 
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125 for the pair. Upgrades could remain the same, but who knows...

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:58 pm 
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Gorgons are too good for their points though. Compare them to Battlefortresses and Baneblade/Shadowsword. 125 for a pair is a bargain.

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