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DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.3

 Post subject: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:00 am 
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Welcome to the Death Korps of Krieg Revision Thread

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The Death Korps of Krieg are one of the most iconic forces in the entire 40K Universe, and have a unique history and background that is reflected in their list and a playstyle that appeals to many Imperial Guard players who care more about victory than the lives of their own 6mm men.

I have been tasked with helping create a version of the Death Korps list that is better balanced against the other NetEA armies. As a long-term player of this army, I am aware of some units that are definitely under-costed and over-efficient, particularly the Gorgon Siege Transports, and a lot of the tweaks made will be to these units. Please note that this does not disparage any player's results with them; they've never been unbeatable (I have beaten them consistently with Eldar and Tau), but that they provide too many tools at two low a price to make it more of an accomplishment to beat them than to win with them.

Please note:
1) The initial versions of this revision will be very experimental in nature, and do not replace or surplant the existing list for events. I expect some trial and error, so please do feel free to playtest this, but it will not be tournament-ready in the first few iterations.

2) I am going into this redesign thoroughly aware it is unlikely to be possible to competely please everyone. DKOK players are going to end up paying more points for their favourite formations, lose access to some of their units and upgrades, and almost certainly end up with lower activation counts. Some of the DKOK-list's detractors may also be disappointed to see that not all their nerf-suggestions are implemented, and that instead a selection from them are tried.

It's also likely to take a few iterations to get it right, so may require patience.

But after several years of this army's codex sitting on the shelf, you're at least guaranteed progress. :D

Death Korps of Kreig Revision 1.3

Attachment:
File comment: Death Korps of Kreig Revision 1.3
KriegRevisionV13.pdf [18.96 KiB]
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Attachment:
File comment: Death Korps of Kreig Reference 1.3
KriegReferenceV13.pdf [120.39 KiB]
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Old: Death Korps of Kreig Revision 1.2
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File comment: Death Korps of Krieg Revision 1.2
KriegRevisionV12.pdf [18.42 KiB]
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Death Korps of Kreig Reference Sheet 1.2
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KriegReferenceV12.pdf [95.94 KiB]
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Old DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1:
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Last edited by Matt-Shadowlord on Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:01 am, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:04 am 
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Death Korps Revision: Playtest V1.0

Gorgon Changes 1 & 2:

I am proposing two major changes to this upgrade. The first is an increase in cost by 50pts (from 125 to 175pts), and the second is a change to the Siege Mortar upgrade from a free option to an upgrade at a cost of 50pts.
These have significant knock-on effects to the list because the infantry and gorgons are core to its functioning, but I think gives a more accurate reflection of their value.

The backbone of my (and the vast majority of other player's) 3000 pt list:

Regimental HQ + 2 Gorgons with Mortars 400 + 125
Infantry Company + 2 Gorgons with Mortars 300 + 125
Infantry Company + 2 Gorgons with Mortars 300 + 125
= 1,375

Regimental HQ + 2 Gorgons with Mortars 400 + 175 + 50
Infantry Company + 2 Gorgons with Mortars 300 + 175 + 50
Infantry Company + 2 Gorgons with Mortars 300 + 175 + 50
= 1,675


That's an increase of 300 points to get the same Core formations which is a significant difference when it hits core units. So for example, with this costing my Cancon DKOK army would have been 3,300 points, so it would have had to drop 2 full support formations (eg thunderbolts and all anti-air guns) in order to be legal.

Option B: the player could choose to go cheap and drop the mortars (a 1-shot 2BP 30cm Indirect weapon)

Regimental HQ + 2 Gorgons 400 + 175
Infantry Company + 2 Gorgons 300 + 175
Infantry Company + 2 Gorgons 300 + 175
= 1,525

That is an increase of 150 over the previous cost, and delivers a less versatile formation. Less bang for more Buck.

Gorgon Change 3:
Change Critical to 'D6 infantry inside the Gorgon take a hit. Further Criticals destroy the Gorgon'.

Infantry Formation Change:
Death Korps Infantry drop from ARM- CC5+ FF5+ to ARM- CC6+ FF5+.
The approved list has them with CC5+ to help compensate for their lack of firepower (they get 1 stubber per 20 stands compared to 1 Autocannon per 2 stands in most Guard lists - making them both an incredibly poor shooting unit, and helping giving the list its Stalingrad feel).
I am proposing testing nerfing them even more, so they become very poor in CC, and not compensating with a price drop. Note this is a trial change, they could be left as is and the gorgon price increase would still make this formation less powerful per point spent.

Death Korps Fire Support:
I propose dropping them from CC5+ to CC6+ for the same reason

Death Rider Company:
Propose moving from Core to Support. There are two main reasons for this; firstly it seems odd to have a 'Core' formation that has to be restricted by points (1 per 1500). Artificial restrictions usually indicate a formation is difficult to balance if included in too large numbers, while Core usually indicates that this is a vital component of the list), and secondly none of the upgrades available to Core suited the Death Riders).

Grenadiers Platoon:
Move to Core to replace riders, increase cost to 250pts. New rule: "This formation loses Scout if it includes a Gorgon Siege Transport" to prevent forward garrisoning of a gorgon.
Increase the cost of their Gorgon from 75 to 100pts

This move to core has a secondary effect - With costs going up in all core formations, players are likely to be drawn to using this unit (10 men 1 Gorgon for 350pts) instead of the infantry formations (20 men and 2 Gorgons for 475pts) in order to keep their activation level up.
This leads to much less overwhelming formation-sizes appearing, which should improve opponent's experience, but the grenadiers being more elite than bog-standard infantry should make them still appeal to DKOK players.

Engineers:
Change stats from CC4+ FF5+ to CC5+ FF4+, and decrease cost to 250pts for 8 units. The current version is overpriced and rarely used. Treat this new cost as very experimental.

Death Korps Silo:
Change from "Slow Firing" to "One Shot"
Decrease FF from 4+ to 5+.
Remove the "Reinforced Armour" rule
The complaints regarding this unit generally haven't been about its deathstrike missiles, which are common amongst guard, but about its efficiency as a very solid Blitz guard. These changes are designed to allow the players to field their missile silos, but for them to be much easier to kill (requiring only half the hits from most attacks) and more vulnerable to assaults.
They are harder to kill than Deathstrike Launchers, but also immobile, deployed in predictable locations and more expensive.

Death Korps Heavy Mortar:
Range change from 30cm to 45cm (the current version is uncompetitive)

Death Korps Quad Launcher:
There is no reason to ever take this, so change from 2x AP4+ to 2x AP4+/ 2x AT5+ to make it more appealing to players and bring it in line with peers.

Other changes:

There are other areas for tweaks, for example the Macharius tanks are overpriced or slightly under-gunned (I did a large spreadsheet comparing them a while back), but really the cornerstone of this list is the large formations of infantry and their Gorgon vehicles, and that's the area to get right first. Weakening Gorgons too much would make them unplayable, so adjusting their prices, the critical hit, and their weapon options seems the best approach to balancing Krieg better.


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Last edited by Matt-Shadowlord on Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:07 am 
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Army Building - List Example
Here's a list I made using the Experimental list v1.0. I've tried to keep it in the same mould as ones I've used at tournaments in the past, while adjusting to the new prices and changes. Comments are below.

Regimental HQ + 2 Gorgons, with Mortars
400 + 175+50 = 625

Infantry Company + 4 Firesupport units
300 + 75

Grenadiers + 1 Gorgon
250 + 100

6 Scout Rough Riders
150

Deathstrike Silo
250

Anti Air Platforms
125

Anti Air Platforms
125

Warhound 275

5 Leman Russ, 1 Vanquisher
430

Warhound 275


The RHQ is built to be a tough to beat BTS; it is however the list's only 'Rock' formation rather than one of three similar formations :D. I've included mortars in it because otherwise the list is lacking anything to incentivise the enemy to spread out, but the cost might now be prohibitive. Don't kid yourself, the RHQ is one tough unit to take out and one of the game's most resilient BTS, but it's at a price that I think most opponents will concede is more justifiable.

To get a decent amount of activations, there is a Grenadier formation (10 men 1 gorgon, rather than the old 20 men 2 gorgons from Core formations) and the other infantry are on foot; this means 3 Gorgons instead of 6 in the list. I could drop Firesupport from the Infantry Company and find points for gorgons, but that almost certainly means reducing an activation or removing the Leman Russes. However, the Infantry company is now intended as a Home Guard formation rather than a spearhead, since the DeathStrike is less likely to survive a game.
When I use this in a game I'd like to put Engineers in to try them out. The may be the opposite of activation-efficiency, but they do sound fun.

Feel free to play around with the list and post comments (or complaints ;)) below. Playtests are absolutely more than welcome.
Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:41 am 
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off to a solid start :)

still think singleton warhounds should be removed as they synergise v.well with the big infantry formations, but maybe these tweaks will make the combo less potent

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:52 am 
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wow, that alot of changes! Bur some very good ideas! A very good first idea for fixing the list.

agree with KIC on the warhound for sure, but that should apply to all list IMO...

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:36 am 
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Thanks for the update. I've got my Easter reading now :)

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:32 pm 
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Good onya Matt.

To be honest, I think there are a few issues though.
Having a large Grenadier Scout infantry formation as a core doesn't sit right with me. 10 of these formations (without the Gorgon upgrade) garrisoned on the half way line is not on. Also having 8 of these formations with Gorgons (at 3000pts) is no easier to deal with than 3 of the larger formations.

I prefer the Death Rider company in the core section and I'd actually like to see list be competitive with only 2 of the large Infantry/Gorgon formations. 3 is close to too much for the average list to deal with. Try to make the Death Riders more appealing and this would help.

Gorgon Critical - "D6 infantry inside the Gorgon take a hit" and still immobilised? Immobilised is very important in this regard.

The Death Korps Heavy Mortar should not be able to fire 90cm with Indirect Fire. 60cm is good enough.

The other changes look good to me!

*edit - I agree with Kyus about seeing Warhounds in Pairs (particularly in this list).

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:46 pm 
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personally I'd prefer to see titans removed entirely, krieg are a low-tech siege regiment, I'd have thought in the same vein as the barans they generally get left to their own devices by the rest of the imperium ;) this would also encourage more use of armour formations which for me is very thematic, the waves of infantry grinding forwards alongside clanking tanks

I'd even consider putting ragnaroks in the list....

also agree with onyx on the grenadiers, hadn't considered the possibility of spamming them like that, good catch!

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:51 pm 
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Aye. I'd rather see a core armour formation occur as then you can equally play the list as a DKoK Armour Regiment if desired which they are also known for and keep the Death Riders and Grenadiers as Support.

Immobilized isn't the great detriment it appears at first as the infantry companies have the numbers to have the ability to stretch out and keep coherency. It opens them up to clipping but actually that's forcing you to burn activations on removing a roadblock which is a perfectly valid strategy. Of course with the added costs in this version that's not as cheap a prospect it once was so probably balances out now. [runs calculator]

Shouldn't this list be actually a 2.x instead? It's not a new list but based on the old, no?

Otherwise this is great stuff MSL!

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:38 pm 
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I am very interested in toning down the Death Corps list since Mordroten is always complaining about what cheese they are! :-) And he does have a point, mainly about the inf + gorgon units. I usually play Steel legion and have only fought one battle with my newly puchased Cops models so take my comments with a pinch of salt!

Gorgons: I think the Gorgon changes are good and obviously needed. A simpler solution could be dropping DC to 2 but your suggestion might be better.

Infantry: I kind of like CC 5+ mostly for fluff and the fact of no long range weapons. But it's not very important

Death Rider Company: No stong feeling about it but I kind of like the possibility of a Death Rider heavy army. They have 2 attacks each right?

Grenadiers Platoon: Good

Engineers: Utterly necessary

Death Korps Silo: One shot? Why, then it's quite obviosly worse than the regular ones with just one shot? But they are definatley too strong as units. I kind of like the idea of dropping them to DC 2. It would make them much easiser to break for the opponent and stop them firing which would bring them in line with the mobile version?

Death Korps Heavy Mortar: Good

Death Korps Quad Launcher: Good

Macharius: Should probably be dropped in price?

Goood work!


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:18 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Immobilized isn't the great detriment it appears at first as the infantry companies have the numbers to have the ability to stretch out and keep coherency. It opens them up to clipping but actually that's forcing you to burn activations on removing a roadblock which is a perfectly valid strategy. Of course with the added costs in this version that's not as cheap a prospect it once was so probably balances out now. [runs calculator]

On the contrary, Immobilised is very important as it prevents the cursed 4+RA shield for the armourless, supposed attrition based formation. Immobilised by itself is not enough. D6 casualties is not enough. Both together and we're getting close.

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:43 am 
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Onyx wrote:
On the contrary, Immobilised is very important as it prevents the cursed 4+RA shield for the armourless, supposed attrition based formation. Immobilised by itself is not enough. D6 casualties is not enough. Both together and we're getting close.

Would "Destroy the transport and kill everyone on board" be too much?


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:15 am 
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Thanks very much for the initial feedback. I'll respond to a few points.

kyussinchains wrote:
off to a solid start :)
still think singleton warhounds should be removed as they synergise v.well with the big infantry formations, but maybe these tweaks will make the combo less potent


If that change is necessary it will be made, but first I'd like to try make changes to the big infantry formations themselves. IMHO, the single warhounds just magnified the problem rather than being the problem.

mordoten wrote:
wow, that alot of changes! Bur some very good ideas! A very good first idea for fixing the list.
agree with KIC on the warhound for sure, but that should apply to all list IMO...


Above my paygrade sorry :D

Onyx wrote:
Good onya Matt.
Having a large Grenadier Scout infantry formation as a core doesn't sit right with me. 10 of these formations (without the Gorgon upgrade) garrisoned on the half way line is not on.


Thanks for the feedback. I'd like to add a 10 man 1 gorgon option that appeals to players to move them away from 20 man 2 gorgons. This formation would not need Scout rules, and doens't necessarily even need to be Grenadiers.


I'll explain the reason behind this idea: In the current version, people generally run three massive formations of 20 men and 2 Gorgons - partly because it's great, and partly because there isn't much choice.

I'd like lists created with the new version to have one 20+2 'rock' of a Regimental HQ (now more expensive, but the only way to get a SC) and then have infantry on foot or single gorgons with smaller infantry formations. The smaller formations are a lot more manageable for opponents, offer less ablative armour, never be able to book-end an infantry centre with a gorgon on either side, etc.

The price increases and formation downgrades should help achieve a push towards less massive formations (or people can still take them, but have less points left for other formations than ever before), and the formations themselves are being downgraded in power (CC reduction, Critical improved, mortars an expensive option etc).

Onyx wrote:
Try to make the Death Riders more appealing and this would help.


Easily done - they lose Scout when taken in groups of 12 (which is a significant rule obviously), but can have standard Rough Rider attacks.

Onyx wrote:
The Death Korps Heavy Mortar should not be able to fire 90cm with Indirect Fire. 60cm is good enough.


It's 4 infantry (Speed 5cm Armour none CC 6+ FF 6+) with trojans or a short trench for 200pts. The same costs gets you 3 earthshakers (120cm-240cm) with trojans or 3 gun emplacements. The change is intended to make the unit more relevant as an option. Alternatively a small price decrease might have the same effect if the range is really an issue.


Onyx wrote:
Gorgon Critical - "D6 infantry inside the Gorgon take a hit" and still immobilised? Immobilised is very important in this regard.


They can, I put it in as just the casualties because I'd like to try it and see if it does what I expect - sometimes cause enough casualties to break the formation. I expect it to end up the shrapnel supernova and Immobilise.

kadeton wrote:
Would "Destroy the transport and kill everyone on board" be too much?


IMHO yes because it makes the Gorgon a very bad place to put 10 infantry. I think kill the war engine and 10 other stands might make it the worst crit in the game (which I concede some people would love right now, but remember any opinions are based on a version that's already significantly different from this one. :))


More feedback is welcome., thanks


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Experimental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:35 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. I'd like to add a 10 man 1 gorgon option that appeals to players to move them away from 20 man 2 gorgons. This formation would not need Scout rules, and doens't necessarily even need to be Grenadiers.
If it isn't Grenadiers, it would be too cheap to be a core formation and would be totally spamable. I don't see a need for this formation as a core formation.

Sure, the 3 huge infantry/gorgon formations are brilliant, but they are also expensive. Make them less brilliant (as you have proposed) and more expensive (as you have proposed) but don't allow that to be mitigated by taking way more activations.

You should be aiming for a max of 8 activations if a player takes the 3 tooled up infantry formations. At the moment, a super competitive list can have 11 activations (inc the 3 death star inf/gorgons, deathstrikes, multiple warhounds, multiple shadowswords, scouts, AA and planes). If a player wants more activations, they should be steered away from the death star inf/gorgon combos and use the Death Riders as a cheaper activation.

Allowing cheap core formations with access to 4+RA war engine transports is not going to be fun to play with or against and isn't solving the problem.

Matt wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Try to make the Death Riders more appealing and this would help.


Easily done - they lose Scout when taken in groups of 12 (which is a significant rule obviously), but can have standard Rough Rider attacks.
The Death Riders in the core formation already don't have Scout. It's only the Death Rider Scout Platoon that has Scout.

Matt wrote:
Onyx wrote:
The Death Korps Heavy Mortar should not be able to fire 90cm with Indirect Fire. 60cm is good enough.


It's 4 infantry (Speed 5cm Armour none CC 6+ FF 6+) with trojans or a short trench for 200pts. The same costs gets you 3 earthshakers (120cm-240cm) with trojans or 3 gun emplacements. The change is intended to make the unit more relevant as an option. Alternatively a small price decrease might have the same effect if the range is really an issue.
If a Krieg player wants effective artillery, then buy the Earthshakers/Medusas (you will need to check the Medusa stats though). The Trojans should be an upgrade that costs points as it GREATLY increases the formations abilities. Honestly, I'd do away with the mortars as there is no need for them to be 90cm.


Matt wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Gorgon Critical - "D6 infantry inside the Gorgon take a hit" and still immobilised? Immobilised is very important in this regard.


They can, I put it in as just the casualties because I'd like to try it and see if it does what I expect - sometimes cause enough casualties to break the formation. I expect it to end up the shrapnel supernova and Immobilise.
Good. It really will need to be both if you want this thing to be remotely playable.

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