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[Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion

 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:08 pm 
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very cool and thematic list. i like it!

some questions though..

1. the punisher gatling range is 20cm? quite an odd number. shouldn't it be 30cm or so?

2. the plasma guns on the demolisher are not AP4+/AT4+ and slow firing as the normal stat is? i would stick to consistent stats. also, same thought, why does it have TRA?

3. i second apocs thought on the vultures. too advanced. if there is some lack of AT fire let the fire support upgrade be 2 OR 4 stands big, in order to pack in some more lascannons. 50pts for 2 and 75pts for 4 i'd say. futhers the horde character of the list.

4. as for the fanatic priest, netepic/has had a unit called "confessor" whipping the formation into a mindless repenting frenzy once the other commanders/commissars in this formation are gone. so lets say, replace one taskmaster in a penal company with a confessor (by choice - not as fix). if the confessor is the formations last remaining "officer" he really starts to drive the formation with holy zeal. all remaining units gain "fearless" for the remainder of the game but can do nothing else than double or engage towards the nearest enemy or conduct a hold action when they fail to activate. when hold comes up the formation must move towards the nearest enemy formation! it may not choose to fire or remove bm.

admittedly i have not thought in depth about point 4 about playability and what situations might arise from this or conflicting rules for that matter but i thought it as fluffy and would love to see the confessor up in an penal legion army.

cheers!

:)


Last edited by Graf_Spee on Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:12 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Apocolocyntosis wrote:
* Vultures too advanced, you'd give those to proper regiments not waste on penal legion
Yeah but there's little AT in this list so I figured they've have to have something. Everyone?
[/quote]

I'm with Apoc on this one - I'd rather the list have a big weakness than have that weakness patched with Vultures. How about some hunter-killer sentinels? Sentinels marching through the ranks to ensure the watchful, mechanised eye of the Emperor's Armies hangs over the scum sounds like fun to me? More demo packs (0-2 Last Chancer regiments?)? I'd lean towards the availability of vanilla Russes, Demolishers and the odd super-heavy, plus those titans, being enough without Vultures.


Also, you're going to catch so much hell leaving the Punisher at 20cm range... HERETIC! RANGES MUST BE PROPERLY DELINEATED IN ONLY 15cm BRACKETS! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:52 am 
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WE transports are pretty strong in the LATD redux and Feral ork lists as well, but those are tough WE. Ork battlefortresses are good with powerfields … but these prison transports would lack those.

Mass Containment Transporter
WE speed: 25 (less armour than a gorgon, not as zippy as a suped-up mekboy-tinkered battlefort)
Armour 4+, FF/CC 6+
2*heavy stubbers 30cm AP6+
Transport: 8–10?
(10 lets you get abhuman formation in one WE, 8 feels right, 9 lets penal coy with +2 ogryns not split over 3 WE)

Could have some fun with the crit. I mean, there's not a lot to break, could see it being like a WW2 workhorse bomber that can have multiple holes blown through wings and fuselage to little effect – except this thing is stuffed with penal troops. So crit could be D6 unit hits (or 2D3 to really make a point), but no damage to transporter. Motorised shipping containers don't stop if a las cannon shoots through one wall and out the other, but the cargo does … stop.

Cost: bah, depends on if you think gorgon cost is base point for costing or not.



----



I like confessor as a name. They could be allocated like commissars: you can choose a mix of commissar or confessors in the army. Then add in a confessor rule next to the commissar rule for formations with confessors not commissars.

Maybe not for this list, but i like the idea of a character you can sacrifice at the start of combat to gain inspiring in that combat.

good point on support squad mortars, hadn't noticed the weapon options

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:24 pm 
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Nolo has a new war engine in his shop we can use.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/EKD7A ... d=55150422
Attachment:
710x528_7438021_6203073_1459324758.jpg
710x528_7438021_6203073_1459324758.jpg [ 42.66 KiB | Viewed 952 times ]

NAILED IT ;D

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:20 pm 
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Graf_Spee wrote:
2. the plasma guns on the demolisher are not AP4+/AT4+ and slow firing as the normal stat is? i would stick to consistent stats. also, same thought, why does it have TRA?

C&P error (probably from the Punisher table I suspect). They're getting ditched for thunderers anywyas.

Graf_Spee wrote:
3. i second apocs thought on the vultures. too advanced. if there is some lack of AT fire let the fire support upgrade be 2 OR 4 stands big, in order to pack in some more lascannons. 50pts for 2 and 75pts for 4 i'd say. futhers the horde character of the list.

Doomkitten wrote:
I'm with Apoc on this one - I'd rather the list have a big weakness than have that weakness patched with Vultures.

Cool ditched.

Graf_Spee wrote:
4. as for the fanatic priest, netepic/has had a unit called "confessor" whipping the formation into a mindless repenting frenzy once the other commanders/commissars in this formation are gone. so lets say, replace one taskmaster in a penal company with a confessor (by choice - not as fix). if the confessor is the formations last remaining "officer" he really starts to drive the formation with holy zeal. all remaining units gain "fearless" for the remainder of the game but can do nothing else than double or engage towards the nearest enemy or conduct a hold action when they fail to activate. when hold comes up the formation must move towards the nearest enemy formation! it may not choose to fire or remove bm.

Kinda cool mechanic but it's pretty detailed for EA (in reality it's probably best to equate all that rot as just being "inspiring"). I'd going to slot that in the memory bank however for Valhallans who are total Minitorium nutbags. Seems appropriate there (the commissars are MORE appropriate here and 3 special rules in a list is rather frowned upon-i'll probably build a custom scenario with them however). Sweet idea!!


Apocolocyntosis wrote:
WE transports are pretty strong in the LATD redux and Feral ork lists as well, but those are tough WE. Ork battlefortresses are good with powerfields … but these prison transports would lack those.

Mass Containment Transporter
WE speed: 25 (less armour than a gorgon, not as zippy as a suped-up mekboy-tinkered battlefort)
Armour 4+, FF/CC 6+
2*heavy stubbers 30cm AP6+
Transport: 8–10?
(10 lets you get abhuman formation in one WE, 8 feels right, 9 lets penal coy with +2 ogryns not split over 3 WE)

Could have some fun with the crit. I mean, there's not a lot to break, could see it being like a WW2 workhorse bomber that can have multiple holes blown through wings and fuselage to little effect – except this thing is stuffed with penal troops. So crit could be D6 unit hits (or 2D3 to really make a point), but no damage to transporter. Motorised shipping containers don't stop if a las cannon shoots through one wall and out the other, but the cargo does … stop.

Cost: bah, depends on if you think gorgon cost is base point for costing or not.

So to recap, WE only really work well in EA because they're fast or tough or plentiful (or all). Basically that means RA and DC3+ which is appropriate for armies that somewhat care about the troops (in the horrible 40k sense of the term) but these guys are literal fodder. Let me counter with the Gorgon. The only reason people take it is it's all they have AND at least that RA soaks up the hits first because you stick them up front and the infantry hug them for cover. The purpose of the penal units is to shot FIRST to protect the vehicles but WE can be directly targeted so it breaks down in game mechanics. Also let me point out that if a DKoK assault company could take chimeras we'd NEVER EVER see a gorgon again (that's 30BM to break a full company and would outnumber every other formation in the game almost-orks excluded). In addition, let's not even bring up the effects of one being lost when loaded with troops and that they're actually armed (and even heavy stubbers don't really count for much so much so they're basically FREE when added).

So there's an important point that needs to be an articulated reason to actually take it. This is either going to be based on cost, which kinda breaks down on the theme because why would you take a presumably expensive or difficult to use piece of equipment (the WE) when there's perfectly good (read: shitty) beaters and technicals you don't care about to load them into? OR it has to serve some specific purpose that loads of crap vehicles doesn't fulfill in both mechanics and fluff. The best I can come up with is something used to smash through a line (like walker) and probably Leader so represent the fact it's got all sorts of guards with stubbers pointed at them so they tend to not try and run away (aka gun pointed at them).

Maybe something like
Mass Containment Transporter
WE speed: 20cm
Armour 4+, FF/CC 6+
2*heavy stubbers 30cm AP6+
Transport: 8 (Ogryns take up 2 spots)
Notes: Leader, Walker, DC3. Critical, embarked 2D6 units take a hit.

100 each?

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:29 pm 
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needs to be DC3 to be viable and to be able to hold 10 stands

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:59 pm 
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Crit = dead, no special pants for anyone please. And no "common sense", there is no real justification for a small War Engine not been blown to smitherins by a catastrophic critical hit. "Critical" means "Critical", not "unpleasant".
And measured with the Ork Battlebus (which is 115), 100 is roughly okay I guess. Make it 115 and up the transport to 10, bedone.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:23 pm 
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:
needs to be DC3 to be viable and to be able to hold 10 stands

DC3 yes. Transport should be 8 so basically it holds the penal company in toto. Remember, Ogryns are not the prisoners but the brute squad used by the MPs/Abrites.

can someone confirm heavy stubbers are AP6+?
I cannot connect to the TP site right now

v 0.2 in OP

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:19 pm 
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cool! 8)
reads really good and already playable.. i like the text on the prison haulers (transporters..). did you consider giving it walker? well.. most likely over the top then for 75 pts. and not really up to the basic intention of those blocks.

two things that caught my attention:
1.the penal command is missing some kind of transport upgrade (chimeras) in order to drive any infantery uprgade around as well.

2. the abhuman mob as core/unlock selection comes really cheap. although nothing is wrong with numbers and points maybe there should be a restriction on it as it is on last chancers. otherwise an activation overkill is possible. also abhumans might be numerous, but not more than normal stc humans i guess :)

even though this list is really low on scout I really love its theme..
will give it a go.


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:45 pm 
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Graf_Spee wrote:
1.the penal command is missing some kind of transport upgrade (chimeras) in order to drive any infantery uprgade around as well.

Good catch. I've added the standard (* upgrades can take a chimera for blah blah) text found in SL list.

Graf_Spee wrote:
the abhuman mob as core/unlock selection comes really cheap. although nothing is wrong with numbers and points maybe there should be a restriction on it as it is on last chancers. otherwise an activation overkill is possible. also abhumans might be numerous, but not more than normal stc humans i guess :)

Yeah we're definitely going popcorn with them (intentional) but they also lack FF and ranged weapons so... :)
Let's try some stress builds with them to check it out and keep an eye on them.

small update in OP

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:19 pm 
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I'm really curious how this list will proceed. It reads really good.

As a further suggestion, would you consider including the Stormhammer SHT? I think it would be very neat and fluffy acting as mobile fortress for guarding the penal rabble. Much in line with the leman russ punisher regarding range and close range brutality and also boasting TRA for operating safely amid the masses of penal troops. Also its suitable low tech imho.


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:41 pm 
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Yeah that's a distinct possibility!

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:22 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Yeah that's a distinct possibility!


Cool! Dunno if it would work as sole substitute for the baneblade though.

I think I will give this list a go. Just checked my forces and counted 40 stands of old imperial beastmen awaiting their fielding in the abhuman hordes. ;D


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:46 pm 
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Cool! Also anything works as a count-as so perhaps these are not convicts but conscript cannon fodder from the underhive!

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] Imperial Penal Legion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:48 pm 
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BTW the baneblade is poo poo so ANYTHING is better ;)

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