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Storm Troopers in Chimeras?

 Post subject: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:13 pm 
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Is there any compelling reason not to allow them in the Net-EA list? Storm Troopers have always had access to Chimeras in W40k, from way back before Valkyries came into being and I see no reason why they shouldn’t have the choice in Epic too.

4 Chimeras would cost 100 points, so the formation would be 300 points – 50 points less than with Valkyries. Comparing the abilities of the two I think if you are paying for transports then it would likely be better to pay the extra 50 for Valkyries as transports and the Chimera would be a comparatively uncompetitive choice. I still think that choice should be available though and I would still like to regularly use them that way in my army (I want to proxy a formation of sisters of battle as Storm Troopers in Chimeras – I couldn’t use them with Valkyries as these are not something sisters use).

Yes, I know there are other lists like the Cadians that allow Storm Troopers in Chimeras, but they’re really significantly different in many other ways that aren’t what I’m looking for. I’d just like to use the basic list with Chimera Storm Troopers and I propose the list be amended to include the option that really should have always been there.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:22 pm 
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I doubt you'll gain much traction getting them into the Steel Legion army list, but of course tournament die-hards excepted I doubt you'd have a problem finding someone happy to play against the list when modded in that manner.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:19 pm 
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What E&C said.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:03 pm 
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Why not though? Do you have arguments against them having Chimeras or are you just saying that because the option has been left out for so long it might as well stay that way?

There are other cases where we’ve altered the costing and size of formations in published lists or the options available to them e.g. Big/Uge Stompa formations, Swords of Vaul formations, Warp Spiders no longer being able to be transported in Wave Serpents, Attack Bikes able to be transported in Thunderhawks, etc.

Chimera Storm Troopers isn't a newer development, but something that has always been allowed to them in W40k. The Armageddon system and the Steel Legion are especially famous for building and using large quantities of Chimera APCs, so Chimera Storm Troopers would be especially appropriate in their armies out of all IG.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Why not though? Do you have arguments against them having Chimeras or are you just saying that because the option has been left out for so long it might as well stay that way?

I think it comes down to Valkyries being the most iconic transport for Storm Troopers, and that's why they never got Chimeras in the first place, because like Marines not getting veterans it was about what was most iconic, rather than giving them a lot of options.

OTOH I have no objections to seeing this become part of the Steel Legion list. I just doubt you'll get much traction with the idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:29 pm 
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I disagree that Valkyries should be considered the iconic transport for Storm Troopers or that the list designers should forcibly restrict them in this fashion. Storm Troopers have always been riding Chimeras, since at least as far back as the 2nd edition Imperial Guard Codex in 1996. The Valkyrie was only invented around 2002 and it was never intended to replace the Chimera, but to provide another option, either of which may be used depending on preference and circumstance.

One could justifiably argue the most iconic transport for Black Templars is a Land Raider Crusader, yet that didn’t prevent the Black Templars list from being able to also still field Rhinos, Razorbacks and regular Land Raiders.

The background from the Armageddon Codex states on the Steel Legions that "a far higher proportion than normal are Mechanised Infantry, and it's not uncommon for over 90% of a regiment to be made up of such units.” I think in a list purportedly themed around the Steel Legion it is particularly ironic and unfortunate that the mechanised option for the unit was left out.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:31 pm 
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I don't disagree at all, and I'd actually be happy to see the list modded, but intertia is tough to overcome. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:12 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
I disagree that Valkyries should be considered the iconic transport for Storm Troopers or that the list designers should forcibly restrict them in this fashion. Storm Troopers have always been riding Chimeras, since at least as far back as the 2nd edition Imperial Guard Codex in 1996. The Valkyrie was only invented around 2002 and it was never intended to replace the Chimera, but to provide another option, either of which may be used depending on preference and circumstance.

One could justifiably argue the most iconic transport for Black Templars is a Land Raider Crusader, yet that didn’t prevent the Black Templars list from being able to also still field Rhinos, Razorbacks and regular Land Raiders.

The background from the Armageddon Codex states on the Steel Legions that "a far higher proportion than normal are Mechanised Infantry, and it's not uncommon for over 90% of a regiment to be made up of such units.” I think in a list purportedly themed around the Steel Legion it is particularly ironic and unfortunate that the mechanised option for the unit was left out.


FWIW, a new member like myself agrees with GlynG here.
The Valk is not the iconic Storm Trooper transport - but one of them. There are many IG books/pieces of fluff in Codices out there, from the mid 90's onwards, describing ST and Chimera's.
Admittedly, Valks weren't around then, but lets not be complete revisionists.

The missing option of ST in Chimera's is more an oversight IMO, rather than excluded for whatever game balance or fluff reason. That the Cadians can currently get ST's in Chimera's doesnt exclude that the Steel Legion can't have them.
Its also cheaper for the new player to acquire Chimera's, or good proxies, rather than via Valks. And who knows how long Aeronautica will last in the FW catalogue...
The Cadian list is still different enough to have its own flava ;) if you give the SL list the ST's in Chimera's. Also provides some spiffy paint scheme's for the Chimera's, ST wouldnt like to have the same coloured transports as the normal grunts!

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Well, it's a bit old but that doesn't matter IMO. Are there any news allowing ST to use chimeras? IMO it is an well-suitet option.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Koshi wrote:
Well, it's a bit old but that doesn't matter IMO. Are there any news allowing ST to use chimeras? IMO it is an well-suitet option.


Check the designer notes at the back of the rule book, players have always been encouraged to alter anything in the rules or lists if it suits their gaming group, that includes transport options.

You only need to agree with your regular opponents to allow any changes you want.

The army lists are (or should be) designed mainly for tournament play and to also allow pick-up games between non regular opponents to give, hopefully, a fair and balanced game.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 12:41 am 
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Take it from an old Mech Grunt ... it's better than walk'n !!! ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:51 am 
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admiral_tee wrote:
The missing option of ST in Chimera's is more an oversight IMO, rather than excluded for whatever game balance or fluff reason. That the Cadians can currently get ST's in Chimera's doesnt exclude that the Steel Legion can't have them.
Its also cheaper for the new player to acquire Chimera's, or good proxies, rather than via Valks. And who knows how long Aeronautica will last in the FW catalogue...
The Cadian list is still different enough to have its own flava ;) if you give the SL list the ST's in Chimera's. Also provides some spiffy paint scheme's for the Chimera's, ST wouldnt like to have the same coloured transports as the normal grunts!

Tee


Which Cadian list are you using? Chroma's list (v1.5.2 is the latest I have) has not been in active development for at least 2-3 years, IIRC. The version in the army compendium (v1.3) is the list that is being most actively developed. You can also find a link in my sig. ;)

Back on topic, the Steel Legion list is already heavily tilted to a mechanized flavor, so there will usually be at least a couple formations in Chimaeras before Storm Troopers are added. STs were given Valks to better distinguish them from regular troops and emphasise the elite nature of their formations. There is no fundamental reason they could not be in Chimaeras, but you'd end up with a formation that would stomp all over the toes of the Mech Inf Coy. 3/4 the points, nearly as good in engage, better AT, and about 75% the AP. Oh, and they'd be able to garrison. Better to make them different enough to fulfill different roles.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:22 am 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
admiral_tee wrote:
The missing option of ST in Chimera's is more an oversight IMO, rather than excluded for whatever game balance or fluff reason. That the Cadians can currently get ST's in Chimera's doesnt exclude that the Steel Legion can't have them.
Its also cheaper for the new player to acquire Chimera's, or good proxies, rather than via Valks. And who knows how long Aeronautica will last in the FW catalogue...
The Cadian list is still different enough to have its own flava ;) if you give the SL list the ST's in Chimera's. Also provides some spiffy paint scheme's for the Chimera's, ST wouldnt like to have the same coloured transports as the normal grunts!

Tee


Which Cadian list are you using? Chroma's list (v1.5.2 is the latest I have) has not been in active development for at least 2-3 years, IIRC. The version in the army compendium (v1.3) is the list that is being most actively developed. You can also find a link in my sig. ;)

Back on topic, the Steel Legion list is already heavily tilted to a mechanized flavor, so there will usually be at least a couple formations in Chimaeras before Storm Troopers are added. STs were given Valks to better distinguish them from regular troops and emphasise the elite nature of their formations. There is no fundamental reason they could not be in Chimaeras, but you'd end up with a formation that would stomp all over the toes of the Mech Inf Coy. 3/4 the points, nearly as good in engage, better AT, and about 75% the AP. Oh, and they'd be able to garrison. Better to make them different enough to fulfill different roles.


Thread necro Ghost ;)
I was basing my comments off a Cadian list i saw that had the option of ST in Chimera's. I can't give you a version number or anything but i know i saw it. But this was back in July 2011.
Anyway - with the effective removal of ST's, ie they're morphed in Kasrkin and can only take Stormlords.

I see your point that they may be costed a little agressively if you factor in the additonal 100 points for 4 Chimera's, total 300 points. However you can't take them as a core formation and with 'only' 12 models that are fairly light on Armour, they'll (arguably?) be easier to break than the 400 points 20 (?) model Mech company.
Sure you can garrison them, but they'll break fairly easily.
Maybe now is the time to give the ST's their traditional and 'fluff-based' transport?

Tee


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Troopers in Chimeras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:56 am 
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Alternatively why not just convert up some supercharged chimeras to represent the valks? The rocket pods can be hunter killer missiles or something....

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