Hello all! Rug has asked me to champion the Cadian Shock Troops army list, following up on the good work done by E&C. E&C has kindly allowed me to use his original file to build on, and has provided some excellent help in getting to the current state.

Here are the major changes from the original list E&C posted:

Added a "fighting platform" to the Leviathan, allowing up to 6 units to shoot or use their FF value while embarked. Increased the cost of Cadian RHQ to 550 to compensate. One question in my mind is whether the Leviathan should have it's 6 Twin Lascannon, 3 in each side fire arc, or if this should be abstracted to 3 all-round shots. If this were to happen I'd return the cost of the RHQ to 500 points.

Added the option to add Stormlords to the Kasrkin Companies. To tone down the sheer amount of fire the 40k version puts out, I removed the sponsons, leaving only the Vulcan and hull mounted Twin Heavy Bolter. These also have a "fighting platform", though it only allows 4 units to use it. While there is no model for this vehicle yet, I suspect something suitable may become available soon.

Changed the Sanctioned Psykers upgrade to one or two at +25 each.

Reintroduced the Special Weapons Squads. They are a staple Cadian unit, but their role overlaps considerably with the Psykers. Their engagement abilities are worse, but they have ranged fire for assault prepping, then can support. They may end up being cut again based on playtest results.

Allowed either standard or Cadian Sentinels to be taken in the Sentinel Squadron. This is mainly because without the ability to take a Storm Trooper Platoon on foot (it would be virtually indistinguishable from the Kasrkin Company), the list had no ability to set up a scout screen against teleport attacks or air assault. Seeing if the list can operate well without these is another priority. If the list loses nothing by their absence, they'll go.

Removed the option to take Stormblades, added the option to take Stormswords. Cadia is strategically important enough that they would be able to aquire true Shadowswords if they need them, not the second-generation Stormblade. This also forces the choice between the Baneblade's role and the Shadowsword's, instead of the halfway point of the Stormblade. Shadowswords do get knocked out, though, and I imagine the Cadians would be perfectly willing to turn them into Stormswords for close support.

Added the Marauder Colossus. This is on the Heavy Marauder chassis, and more or less drops an Orbital Bombardment, but does not require pre-plotting. However the weapon is Slow Loading. The Model has Twin Heavy Bolters on nose and tail turrets, which I abstracted out to a single all around shot.

Have fun!

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Few notes:

The Kaskrin company is 9 units; a command stand and 8 kaskrin. What's the point in allowing a single stormlord which can only transport 8 bases?

Is removing the sponsons on the Stormlord justifiable? Don't they come as standard? Also why are they so cheap?

Meltaguns shouldn't provide a 15cm shot, they're too short ranged. Should be FF only.

Psykers and Special weapons teams overlap too much.

Look at the costing of the leviathan compared to the Ordinatus. The leviathan is equally tough (better save, less shields), just as well if not better armed, and gets a free transportable supreme commander formation thrown in for the same cost. The leviathan looks heavily underpriced to me (it's currently effectively costing 200 points, the same as a baneblade...)

The Elite special rule doesn't actually list its ingame effect.

I suspect the Colossus will prove horribly overpowered. Please lose MW on it or drop to a normal template.

It's 15cm move. The last stand can walk if need be.



Yes, but they can be removed at a discount and added side armor. The corrollary question is: would you pay 400+ points for transport?


Same stats as Fire Dragon Fusion Guns, IIRC.


As I said, it's a concern. I want to do some comparitave testing before I toss them though.


As I said, I'm open to abstracting out half the Lascannon. The Ordinatus has 8 MW2+ shots. The Leviathan doesn't come close in firepower, IMO. Again, I want to see some tests.


How did that happen? Will fix. *edit* fixed and re-uploaded.


We'll see. I'm not leaving it off the table, but I think it represents the weapon (an FAE type weapon is what I had in mind) well, and want to see some testing done.

Keep in mind, while full-on BatReps are best, even just a quick "This was my list and my opponent, these were the impressions I got" will do.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I've never seen the point of 15cm transports anyway. Staying inside is too risky, so they don't really do much. This is why Gorgons were increased to 20cm, to give them a use. Also you need to note about not using the WE transport rules if they're going to be part of the formation.



Honestly at epic scale the transport abilities of the stormlord aren't that useful, it's a firepower beast. See above.



I've never agreed with those stats either, and they represent an entire squad of 5 fusion guns. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is just a couple of meltaguns in squad, no?




It's not 8 shots, it's really 4 shots on average given that it's slow firing. I'd take a 120cm BP3 MW every turn at reasonably even to that, and the secondary weapons are definitely better.

But hell, compare it to a baneblade; An extra DC, shields, better FF, enormously better weaponry, transport capacity, fearless and a less deadly critical, all for the same effective points? How can that possibly be balanced?



Just do some theory-hammering of what that thing will do to armies. Run a the numbers on a few potential scenarios and you'll see.


You're better off starting underpowered and overpriced and then incrementally improving.

In the Steel Legion PDF i costed the Leviathan 400pts for a reason. And it doesn't get any in-build Infantry!

@Stormlord: Epic doesn't use optional weaponry in the units. As removing the sponsons from a super-heavy tank is anoption i would keep them on the Epic Stormlord too.

@Special Weapon Squad: They are 3 Meltaguns per 6 troopers. Fire Dragons are 5 Fusionsguns per 5 troopers.
But anyway i imagine Special Weapon Squads as being armed with Grenade Launchers wich would be justthe same stats as a Fire Support unit but without any ranged attack. Obviously the benefits should be low cost and/opr highnumber of units for the upgrade (no formation of it's own).

And please rotate the reference sheet. My neck will thank you very much

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So we have three options here. The first is as it is. The second is to add sponsons and leave it as a transport. It will never get used, as the cost will be too high. The third is to add it in as a support formation with sponsons. The transport will never get used. It will also be difficult to balance against the other superheavies with its full armament. They are actually worth less as transports than in their own formation; they lose an activation relative to their own formation, they add AT susceptability as well. The sheer cost is the main problem though. To make it a viable transport option, the price has to stay down.



25-50 more, actually. It could probably stand to go up even more. However, we run into the WE as transport vs. WE as formation issue again. A WE transport simply is not worth as much as it would be on its own. It's not comparing apples to apples.



It has a lot of potential against bunched infantry or lighter AVs, but so do Manticores. So do Stormswords. I'm not averse to reducing the BP or increasing the points, but I want to see more tests done.



Agreed. I really don't think the list is overpowered as is. Try it. I will be using it as often as I can. I'm not averse to changes. I want to see how it plays and get more supported feedback before I do though. Again. I'm not askig full Batreps, simply play it and tell me what you thought. Try to break ir. I will be.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

My comments:

- I agree the Reg HQ might well be too cheap. Try going up to 600pts.


- I don't see why only the Kasrkin Company can take Stormlords. I would put them in the Upgrades section of the list so that all the companies can take them.


- Special Weapons teams do duplicate the role of Pskyers, and should be removed. As Zombo says their ranged shot is not really justified.


- In order to prevent the Stormlord being too mega-powerful I support leaving off its sponsons.


- I'm not sure I like having the Scout Sentinels and also the Cadian Sentinels, because the difference in model, even with a WYSIWYG conversion, is going to be slight. My personal preference would be to delete the Scout Sentinel and see if the list can live without it.

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Stormlords look about balanced against Baneblades, slightly better AP, slightly worse AT.

Minor point, you are missing the "/" in the quick reference for the kasrkin's plasma profile.

Any reasoning behind not having the storm lord as an option for support along with the other 3 SHTs?

What are thoughts on making the Lascannon three all around instead of three to each side? At that level, the cost would be correct. If there is no support for this, 600 points is reasonable. As an aside, the Leviathan's Doomsday Cannon should have Fixed Forward. I will correct that in the next version.



I did that to emphasize the elite nature of the Kasrkin. I can't see Cadian high command loading a superheavy up with nine year olds (Whiteshields) and sending it off to the front, can you?



I'd like to keep the Special Weapons Teams in some capacity. There are five options, IIRC. Plasma (the list has enough), Melta (people dislike it and there is overlap with the Psykers), Demo Charges (no justification in Cadian list), Granade Launcher (preferred by Cadians, but ends up as a short ranged Autocannon), and finally Flamers. Flamers would end up with a FF4+ IC squad. What are thoughts on this instead, as there seems to be no support for the Meltas?



This is something I plan to test tomorrow if possible. I'm leaving them in until more testing is done, particularly against Space Marines or another army with teleport/drop capacity. If there is a way to remove them, I will. I don't see how, though. I also worry that a Scout free Sentinel formation will become a 'dud' against the Griffons and Hellhounds, which are really quite good once range closes.


Thanks, will fix.



[quote=Spectrar Ghost]The third is to add it in as a support formation with sponsons. The transport will never get used. It will also be difficult to balance against the other superheavies with its full armament. [/quote]

If the Stormlord went to support, it would get its full armament. There would be no reason not to, as the primary reason for leaving it off is cost control as a transport. The transport, which is the defining characteristic of the vehicle IMO, would never be used. It would also be worth at least 250 points, possibly more, as it's own formation, and would make the Baneblade virtually redundant.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I'll respond in more detail later, but just to note that as a support formation the Stormlord would be able to use its transport per the WE transport rules. It might even be more useful in that role, as it could flexibly pick up any formation.

I can certainly see them putting basic infantry companies in Stormlords, if not the Whiteshields.


Still don't see the need, as they'd still be performing essentially the same battlefield role as Psyker squads (FF boost infantry unit). Counts-as covers it, for me.


If it's a dud, then you add units until the squadron is worth its points, IMO.



I'm not keen on the 3x Lascannons option for the Leviathan.

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However, If the sponsons were left off however it should pair up nicely with the pricing of the other SHTs, keeping all 5? in the same bracket. As to the baneblade, the 2 are (currently) about equivalent in firepower, so not an automatic choice i would have thought... There's always the other thought that the baneblade could be left out

What makes the Stormlord unique and includable as a superheavy is it's transport capacity, not it's armament. Otherwise, the Stormsword performs almost the same role, arguably better with it's Disrupt/IC shot. As a design choice, therefore, it is going to be used as a transport. Whether to only allow Kasrkin to use it, or to add it to the upgrades section is up for discussion. The inclusion of sponsons is as well. Note that with sponsons the cost would probably go up to 200 per. That would be an armament of: Vulcan Mega-bolter, Twin Heavy Bolter, 2x Lascannon, 2x Twin Heavy Flamer. To place it in support, however, makes it a fire support platform first and foremost, and a transport only in name.

[quote=Evil and Chaos]If it's a dud, then you add units until the squadron is worth its points, IMO.[/quote]

My worry is not that the points are off, but that a Sentinel without Scout, and in a list with perfectly viable close support options, is more or less useless.

If there is really no support for the Special Weapons squads in any form, they will be removed in v1.1. I thought it might happen, but wanted to gauge reaction.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

As the cheapest Support Formation, they're always going to feature, I think.

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That's fair enough

Just to toss a couple more ideas/thoughts out there...

You may be underestimating the use of a dc3 4+RA transport, especially if they were available as a company (2 Stormlords+ Baneblade, or maybe reduce the Transport to 6 stands and then you could mount an infantry company with fire support in 3). So long as the enemy has better targets for their TK weapons (or none...) then you could leave the infantry mounted and they'd be invulnerable to AP fire.