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For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x

 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:07 pm 
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SR3 wouldn't be a bad idea. I would go that route first - I can't think of a mainly teleport army with squishy troops that has SR2 or less (what's CSM again?). Necrons don't really count as the stuff that teleports is hard as nails and still functions if it's broken (even benefits from it).

Dropping the price of drop co.s would have to go far enough that a teleported Elysian army could absorb 2-3 activations of pummeling and still have a couple left over to do something with. It'd be hard to get that far without getting silly cheap. I'd go for SR3 first, if Honda's listening and IA8 allows it (sorry, cheeky jab).


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Yay, pointless arguments cost us another community developer! That's now both of the people who've managed to produce full suppliments who've been hounded out of here. Great work everybody.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:46 pm 
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I'm pretty sure, at least from evidence on this thread, that Honda didn't tell E&C to leave Taccoms, just this thread. Why your brother took that to the extreme of leaving TC I've no idea. Perhaps he might take it to heart that openly criticising a developer on his development thread isn't a great way to get things done in a community of volunteers and change his approach to be a little less confrontational.

Note that I don't agree with Honda's almost slavish adherence to IA8 in the development of this list (other than occasional cheeky jibes) but if I wanted to do something about it, I'd approach the NetERC to arrange a solution, not slag him off in public.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:48 pm 
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I didn't say anything about Honda, just that pointless arguments have cost us another great developer.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:08 pm 
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I can't argue with that :( I sadly can't offer any solutions either.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Maybe the great developers should stop instigating and perpetuating pointless arguments?

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:45 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Maybe the great developers should stop instigating and perpetuating pointless arguments?

I wouldn't say you were a great developer but kudos for admitting the second part ;D

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:42 pm 
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Y'know, considering your initial interaction with me consisted of calling me names, I'm not sure you're in a position to throw stones.

In fact, if there was a little less of that from Army Champions, the community might be healthier.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:44 pm 
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Can we please stop? Please?

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Y'know, considering your initial interaction with me consisted of calling me names, I'm not sure you're in a position to throw stones.

In fact, if there was a little less of that from Army Champions, the community might be healthier.

If there was a little less of people throwing their toys out of the pram, being unable to accept differing views or courses and acting like arseholes when they don't get their own way we might be getting on better too

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:55 pm 
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Could we get on track here, guys? There's no reason to degenerate to name calling.

@Mattthemuppet: Thanks for the battle reports, good to know I'm not the only one who had that experience. Eldar are probably the absolute nastiest army for Elysians to face, since they're fast and mobile enough to negate most advantages. :)

RE: Strategy Rating change:
Agreed, SR3 would definitely be a great palce to start. Chaos has SR4, even though they aren't as heavily teleport-enabled as the Elysians (or even Space Marines, for that matter) SR3 would put the Elysians in the same camp as Orks, Saranes Crusade lists, or Saim-Hann Eldar, which seems like a decent place for them. Like Mtm said though, dropping the companies price too far means that you're just scattering drop companies all over the enemy, and having a crazy amount of activations. SR3 will help against some armies, but facing Codex Marines will still be brutal, as there's only a 1-in-6 chance of actually beating their strategy rating roll (about 1-in-3, if ties go to your benefit) Definitely much better than the current 1-in-12, though. Perhaps there's some way to increase the durability of the drop companies? What jumps to mind is making the Sentinels either AV outright, or providing an exception so that the infantry can gain cover by dropping adjacent to the walkers. That would greatly reduce the casualties to the poor guys when their intended target lights them up.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:34 pm 
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Editorial:

I'm not really sure what is creating a lot of the tension around these boards lately. It does seem like there was a lot more kumbaya around when SG at least had some influence or we were holding out the possibility that they might come back. Warmaster went through a similar cycle and eventually it just became easier to move on. Although having thought about it a number of times, I still want to believe in this community and Epic. I have on the order of 4000 - 5000 pts of 40K Elysians which I play primarily in Apocalypse. I don't need to play Epic any longer as I have the 40K armies that I want.

I choose to be here, as imperfect as I am, to try and do the best that I can...and when I've messed up (and I have) I've apologized. I'm not here to get my ego stroked. If I was, I'd pick something more commercially profitable. If others are here for that reason, I don't criticize them at all for wanting to do that. They have made the game much more accessible and fun to play with their efforts.

I'm just here because I want to have some fun. It's a part of my hobby.

In the past, it seemed like we were more focused on having fun, producing memorable reports, and sharing. We were less concerned about perfection or our perception of what perfection is.

People mattered more than toys.

It feels like we've gotten away from that.

I'm interested in working with people who'd like to return back to that time. That doesn't mean that we'll be sending each other roses on a regular basis, but it does mean that respect should be mutual, even if we don't agree with each other. Because at the end of the day, this is a hobby where people come to get some measure of enjoyment and perhaps escape the every day pressures that we're all under and if we do our "jobs" well, a bit of fun to boot.

This list started way back because I had just purchased Imperial Armor 3 - The Taros Campaign. I immediately was drawn to the Elysians because the Valkyrie was the coolest thing to come out of 40K in years. I didn't think that I would ever be able to collect a 40K army of them, so I endeavored to create an Epic version.

Before I started, I polled a lot of the players out there to get a feel for what they thought should be in an Elysian list. As it turned out, for every person out there, a different opinion existed. I saw that as troubling and potentially problematical for any list that might be generated as who was really an expert on this sort of subject. So I set as part of the design that I would create a list that emulated the 40K version as much as possible given the wide and varying opinions of what a list ought to look like.

I took that slavish* perspective for one reason. When it came time to explaining why the list consisted of the things it did, I could easily point to the source as the foundation for the list. End of argument. Now, many have not liked that decision, but they could not reasonably argue with the logic. I wanted those that were helping with the list to focus more on it's capabilities given a fixed set of parameters. That's how the real world operates.

Note: I take the word "slavish" dedication to quote Matt the Muppet, not to poke back at him, but more as a compliment. I intended to hold the line on this issue, because it is the bedrock and foundation for which the rest of the house is built upon.

Back then, the list operated in the following fashion:

1. Lot's of drop troop companies, with upgrades and the upgrades were able to take transport
2. Support sentinels in separate formations
3. Drop sentinels in separate formations
4. Storm Troopers that were tailored to fit a particular description of their operations (i.e. airmobile assault)
5. Average aircraft capabilities

The way one approached playing the Elysians back then was to emulate the historical example set in IA3. You grouped your objectives in a way that supported the dropping of an infantry force. You took as many drop troop companies as you could afford because you were going to face attrition. You supplemented them with as many air assets and storm troopers as you could because the formations were fragile. It was tough to get a win.

And that was Ok, primarily because the list was not intended for tournaments and competitive play, it was intended to support "historical" play as outlined in IA3. I took some measure of satisfaction that the list performed in many ways, similarly to it's modern counter parts in the real world and that where those forces performed well it did as well and when tasked with missions that it wasn't necessarily well suited for, it failed, sometimes miserably...also historically accurate.

And we had fun with the list, both the good and the bad.

At some point around 2007-ish or so, at least one member of the then ERC said that it was possible for the list to be considered tournament capable with some testing. We did that (locally) and a couple of other people participated as well. The list was still underpowered (still is actually), but reasonably so.

It was not an easy list to play. Much like real air mobile operations, a lot of things have to go your way. When your actions are under the influence of random decisions (i.e. dice rolls), that may not go your way. That enhances weaknesses inherent in the list.

At some point Imperial Armor 8 came out. It was clear from FWs communications that this list was intended to replace IA3 for a number of reasons. On the balance, it seemed like a good decision because the drop companies became a tad bigger, plus could get access to more organic firepower in the form of attached sentinels. There were new toys...and it seemed like the loss of support sentinels was all that the Elysians were giving up.

So I made the decision to not bridge books and build a pure IA8 list. That seemed the obvious solution to me, but was something that irritated a few. I will freely admit that I don't understand this position, but as stated in previous posts, I will reintroduce them. Mosc and I are working on a first cut at the stats and will present them in the next day or so.

Also at this time, using feedback from this thread, the list took a direction to make things more capable (not a bad idea), but also more expensive (marginally). There was some upping and downing of points here and there, but at the end of the day, the list started giving up activations which up till now had been one of it's strengths. In hindsight, I now believe that to be a mistake. The core formations are fairly solid for what they are intended to do (drop/grab/hold) when there are plenty of them around. They are much too weak to be traveling around as if they are stand alone formations.

So that is going to change.

In light of the heightened state of emotions at this time, I'm going to pause here and do some analysis on the list. If others are interested, I will attempt to find and post some of the older versions just for comparison.

One other point to note. When the Elysians first kicked off, there wasn't the proliferation of lists that we now see. There were only two SM lists (SM and WS), one very broken Eldar list, a Tau list that was alternately strong, then weak, two Ork lists, one Chaos list, one IG list (SL) and one struggling Tyranid list.

Much simpler times.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:41 pm 
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My dream is to have a list that is playable as Air Cav or Drop, which ar e different sides of the same coin for Elysians. Until then, I'll probably concentrate on Vanaheim, but I do look forward to following this list. Good background info BTW, it helps those of us that missed that formative stage get oriented.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:52 pm 
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That does make a lot more sense, and I respect all the hard work you've put into this.

That said, I do think you may need to change the assumption that the list won't be balanced for competitive play. I'm not saying it should be an above-par option, but I think it does need to be par. Or at least interestingly-below-par (you'll lose a lot, but you've got a lot of ways to do it). Right now the Elysians seem like a lot of effort for a lot of getting your teeth kicked at - and usually with the same boot. :)

In regard to thinking you should keep both IA3 and IA8, it's party a "why throw anything out?" attitude, partly "don't screw over the people who converted the models", and partly a suspicion that the Elysians have, if anything, too little stuff. Space Marines have a plethora of choices in their background - Elysians don't.

Older versions might be cool. :)

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:01 pm 
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@SK: I agree that "at par" should be the objective. Nobody, including me, wants to line up against another list knowing before they start that there's no chance. So, we'll definitey be looking at how to make that work.

@SG: The balance between an all (or mostly all) drop list vs. air cav has been one of the challenges from the beginning. The cost of flying is not cheap and this is true in 40K as well. In 40K I tend to take a large number of drop infantry, but am still able to keep a mobile reserve in valks to maintain mobility.

Ok, I'll start looking for the old lists for comparison.

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