Quite simply, because they are not in the source (IA8) that the list is derived from. From the list's first iteration, I stated that the Elysians list I was designing would remain true to the source material. Not everyone has agreed with that decision, but it is the only way that I can defend decisions made on what makes it into the list.

Does that mean that everything in those books is in this list? No, but it certainly does determine what does.

OTW, there would be no justification for excluding anything, including artillery or tanks.

From a list design perspective, it makes a lot of the decisions easier, although not always popular.

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and how has making easy but unpopular decisions been working out for you lately? :P

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Why is the source material necessarily limited to the most recent list? Limiting yourself to "in an Elysian list or background" would keep options open while still preventing things like tanks (barring Forge World writing about air-dropped tanks in Elysian regiments, I suppose).

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Its not the same list but has a lot of common units and issues - with the EUK Vanaheim it was tested extensively without the ability to start on CAP and it didn't work. SM or anybody else with an air assault capability would air assault first off and cripple the vanaheim. We tried at all costs to avoid special rules so for us to add one is ample evidence of its need

I'm curious how you would defend from air assaults Blacklegion?

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As Steve says it is an obvious and crippling problem, even worse in this list than in the Vannaheim list because here your AA formation is 300pts.

Other issues of significant and obvious problems also clearly exist.

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This is made hilariously ironic juxtaposed with your sig :p

If this list is intended to represent all Elysian regiments, why restrict it to just the 181st? We have two detailed examinations of two different regiments conducting two different types of operation. The 23rd shows someone building from a comprehensive Elysian list that chose a more defensive/occupying posture. They needed to capture and hold ground, which is why you see things like the Support Sentinel, which is useful for counterbattery fire from prepared positions. The 181st is a designated raiding force, which is why they have the Tauros. All the stuff we saw in IA3 list still exists, but the Kastorel-Novem raid didn't take them. Artificially restricting anything not in the most recent book ignores a significant amount of potential information about Elysian organization and deployment.

If the 181st is a raiding froce why have they access to the Tarantula Sentry Guns? A purely defensive weapon?

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A) "For such a raid (Kastorel-Novem) you need mobile forces, hence the Space Marines and the air-mobile Elysians." (IA8, 4) "Captain Tharnstadt's strike force was part of a deep raiding force about to drop into the heart of Ork-territory" (IA8, 7) "Captain Thanstadt [and the Raven Guard] were about to interrupt Garaghak's momentum by launching a high-speed surgical raid" (IA8, I could keep going, but it's probably unnecessary :p Sword and Dagger forces are undoubtedly light raiding forces, (essentially airborne Drop companies and Tauros companies respectively) but even Shield is a strategically "raiding" action, even if it was tactically on the defense.

A) Tarantula sentry guns can be both air-dropped from high-altitude aircraft, and transported via Valkyrie. Even in a raiding force, you still need to set up forward LZs and lay ambushes and the like, a role for which the Tarantulas are ideally suited. They can also be easily abandoned and left behind if a rear-guard or rapid extraction is needed, something that you can't do with highly-trained infantry.

B) If Tarantulas are in both 40k lists, why are they not in this epic one?

It is a design decision.



Because I did not feel that one more small, potentially cheap formation was necessary in the list, nor was the capabilities of a Tarantula going to add value.

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- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

And as far as I can tell it's an arbitrary design decision. Why not include elements of both lists? It'd create a broader army list with more options - that's hardly a bad thing. Choice is good, so long as it remains within the themes of the list.

I mean, it's your decision to make. You just don't seem to have a reason for it, and there seem to be some pretty good ones in favor of the opposite method.

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I guess what amazes me is that by adding this one unit to the list, we suddenly bridge the two books, unicorns show up and now that makes all the other formations work better or look more attractive, or something. Seriously?

I'll put them back in. Do your happy dance.

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I've considered it; Honda's been trying to develop an Elysian list since 2005, and his list still has fundamental issues IMHO.

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Moving the conversation back from my playtest thread:

I think Marauders would make more sense as HALO platforms. We have some fluff supporting operations using them (there's a Gaunt's Ghosts book I can't remember the name of) and they seem like more of a "flyover" craft. (also keeps it more distinct than having a Spacecraft, named after Skimmers, simulating Aircraft) It would even make some sense that you couldn't call in the drop while there's a spacecraft overhead, as there would be Fury Interceptors and point-defense that would make it impractical. Maybe even give it a Pin-point attack of 4xAT4+, to represent escorting units taking the opportunity to launch Hellstrikes?

Deployment is definitely a problem, but the Planetfall route still doesn't help one of the current crippling problems: complete lack of mobility once they've landed. As is, you either have to go Valkyrie-borne, or resign yourself to troops that are essentially locked in place once they arrive. Some sort of WE transport (even one with terrible armor) would at least allow you to pull the troops off and redeploy them. Perhaps have the Valkyrie Sky Talons be a Thunderhawk Transporter-like formation? They're currently pretty extraneous, except for adding extra units to a formation. (Speed 35cm Walkers don't really gain a whole lot by being transported by Speed 35cm Skimmers, especially with only 5+ armor on them) Fluff references the Sky Talons carrying supply pods for the troops, but I think it would be reasonable to assume there is (or could be) some sort of "transport pod" which could give them transport capacity. Give them a Heavy Bolter, an Underwing Rocket shot, 5+ armor and a 5+ firefight. This would let the individual troops redeploy, and give Sentinels more of a purpose. (since they're not much faster than infantry, and Light Vehicles with Macroweapon shots are always priority targets)

Something also needs to be done with the composition of the regular infantry squad. To compare to Steel Legion, you save 25 points and get: Teleport, 2/3rds the stands, 1/3 the range, 1/2 the shots, no additional durability, and have to choose between upgrades or Valkyries. At no point in my battle report did I get more than 2 shots from a company, and being restricted 15cm means it's much harder to have enough infantry in range to be able to bypass suppression. (especially since shooting and killing a single no-save infantryman means that the formation is immediately reduced to a maximum of 2 shots, even if everyone's in range.)

I'm thinking what could help the infantry is to make them more durable and more flexible. Maybe start with a Commander and a few stands of Infantry, and then require them to take at least one upgrade, perhaps from 2-4 specific options? Alternately, maybe just replace two of the Elysian Infantry with Fire Support teams? I don't know for sure, but something needs to be done to make them both more threatening, and more durable.