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Elysian List

 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:58 pm 
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After four (or five?) games with the Elysians I wanted to throw out some general thoughts on the list.

Overall the list feels balanced, or maybe slightly underpowered.  High activation counts (11-13 range) save the list and the only loss of four (or five) games I took was when I went with heavy formations and 'only' ten activations.   :cool:

Mortars seem pretty difficult to capitalize on.  Because you can't fire indirectly, the limited range makes them difficult to work with and I would rather spend the points on another fire support team.    Is the reason for not having the indirect fire the 1.9.8 indirect fire minimum range requirement of 30cm?  I'm not sure how to fix it either.  If you up the range to 20cm and add indirect, you end up with a unit that can fire 0-20cm directly, 30-40cm indirectly, and nothing 20-30cm.  Very weird.  Up it higher than 40cm indirect and it seems to be ranging more than mortars should.  Perhaps an indirect fire like the support sentinals that can go 45cm but don't double their range when they fire indirectly.  It would also give the Elysians a chance to shoot something when they are within 10+ cm of woods.  A handy thing to have.

On a side note, the support sentinals are not Barrage weapons yet firing indirect, yet the 1.9.8 rule is for barrage weaponry.  It isn't a big deal, but somebody who wanted to nitpick could make a case that non-barrage weapons don't have any business firing indirect at all.  Perhaps some notation in the errata indicating that the indirect fire rules were borrowed for that unit...

There is a deadly combination if left to its own devices: the Drop Sentinals in Valkyries.  When playing properly, that formation can incinerate an enemy when they get within the 15cm range.  It didn't strike me as broken, just an interesting point.

Maurauder Destroyers - I brought them every game.  I love the formation and it was great.  The unit might feel overpowered in any other list but seeing that it is the only WE in the Elysian list, it did not get any raised eyebrows (especially when they found out how much it cost).  My only concern is what felt like my own perceived reliance on it.  I felt naked without the formation.

Lightning Strike Fighters - used them once and they seemed like good units.

Lightning Fighters - I am glad we went with four fighters, even though the formation underperformed, and here is why:  
These things are killers vs. enemy aircraft and anything they set out to kill will fall from the sky.  But once you clear the skies of opponents, they are pretty useless.  They can barely hit a single tank between the four of them and can't even kill infantry.  They are highly specialized and well suited for what they were intended.

Games played in similar ways, with large infantry formations running for cover and soaking up fire while smaller formations maneuvered about and did the real damage.  The large infantry formations frequently could not fire at all because a few blast markers from teleporting plus being shot at supressed the mortars, support weapons, and veterans (the only units in range).  This meant the formations did a lot of marshalling or risked everything in an assault.

Commissars IMO should be changed to match the 1 per 500 point limit that the other IG lists are taking on or any fixed ratio.  The army is difficult to model already, and having a variable set of commissars is annoying.  With a fixed number you can plan your army models better.

All in all, a fun army to play with and it feels very different from other armies.  It's like wearing a loin cloth to a lion hunt.  You can do it, but you wish you had more on.

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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:59 pm 
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On a separate note, these things appear to be coming down the pipeline...

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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:03 pm 
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Is there any room in the Epic list for these 10 wheel ATVs and heavy Valkyries (which will probably be picked up by Aeronautica Imperialis)?

Lastly, are there SAMs (Surface-to-air missiles) in the Elysian 40K list?  If so, would these be possible support additions?  Even an AA6+ would be nice to attach to a formation, for a price of course.

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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:09 pm 
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Yes together with a new Imperial Armour book featuring the Elysians.

And any chance to get the Vendetta (a Valkyrie with three twin Lascannons) or the Vulture with Twin Punisher Cannons in this list? I can't imagine any other list where this things fit better.




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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:47 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ Sep. 28 2009, 20:58 )

On a side note, the support sentinals are not Barrage weapons yet firing indirect, yet the 1.9.8 rule is for barrage weaponry.  It isn't a big deal, but somebody who wanted to nitpick could make a case that non-barrage weapons don't have any business firing indirect at all.  Perhaps some notation in the errata indicating that the indirect fire rules were borrowed for that unit...

Thudd Guns in the Siegemasters list set a precedent for non-barrage indirect fire.




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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:57 pm 
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The Indirect Fire problem could be solved if the rule itself would change slighty.
Sono automatic minimum 30cm range. Set the minimum range individual for each unit.
So a Erthshaker could have 120cm 1BP Indirect Fire(30) to indicate that it has a minimum range of 30cm when firing indirect.

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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:35 pm 
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Indirect fire is not restricted to barrage weapons. From the 2008 errata:
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1.9.8: Indirect Fire Rules: When the rules are updated these rules will be moved to the special abilities section so that they can be used by other types of unit.

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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:26 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ Sep. 28 2009, 20:58 )

Commissars IMO should be changed to match the 1 per 500 point limit that the other IG lists are taking on or any fixed ratio.  The army is difficult to model already, and having a variable set of commissars is annoying.  With a fixed number you can plan your army models better.

I agree.


=====

I also agree with Blacklegion that the Vendetta might be cool to have (in-game a Vendetta is the same stats as a Valkyrie but it has 3x Twin Lascannons instead of AP-biased weapons).


Don't think the twin-punisher Vulture config. is needed.

Quote: 

are there SAMs (Surface-to-air missiles) in the Elysian 40K list?

No.

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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:19 am 
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Manticore Platforms could be fitted with Sky Eagle Rockets as AA-Platform. But i doubt that as an attack force the Elysians would use such a static unit.

Imperial Guard Vendetta
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 35cm 5+ 6+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
3 x Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+ -
2 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ -

Notes: Skimmer, Scout. Transport (may carry two Infantry units).




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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:23 am 
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Quote: 

War Engine

I believe you mean Armoured Vehicle.


I'd leave off the Heavy Bolters as they're optional in 40k and muddy the Anti-Tank role of the aircraft.

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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:34 am 
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Ah damn@WE. I always copy a SHT template to use the formating. There may be errors taking over :D

The Valkyrie also has the optional Heavy Bolter so i leftthe,

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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:41 am 
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Quote: 

The Valkyrie also has the optional Heavy Bolter...

And for the AP-focused Valkyrie they're a good fit.

For the Vendetta, they muddy the waters, and make a vehicle that's already going to cost a lot of points cost even more.

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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:44 am 
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Well it's the army champs call  :)
BTW the Vendetta can exchange 2 twin Lascannnons for 2 Hellfury one-shot missiles which are pure AP (and rather crap, think Frag-Missile with 5" blast).

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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:21 am 
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i like the idea of AA infantry. i think they would fit and add something cool and unique to an already great list.


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 Post subject: Elysian List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:45 pm 
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Quote: (mnb @ Sep. 28 2009, 21:21 )

i like the idea of AA infantry. i think they would fit and add something cool and unique to an already great list.

Agreed, but at the same time I don't want to put anything out there that is too out of the norm for the Elysians either.  Obviously I think it would be cool too, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned anything.  Something like an AA6+ SAM team for 25 points.  Buy four of those and you have don't have to rely 100% on aircraft, but they would still stink in terms of their actual firepower.

As for the other units, I am trying to figure out where that ATV would fit into the list.  Obviously it would be dropped, but it doesn't look like it carries more than one unit's worth of men.  4 ATVs plus 4 Elysians wouldn't be much to work with either unless it had some sort of heavy gun mounted on the top like an autocannon (AP5/AT6, 45cm range). Then again, just having an inexpensive armored vehicle to zoom around with that has a 30-35cm speed and provides cover might be worth it all by itself.

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