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Cadian Shock Troops v1.5

 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:20 pm 
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At this point in time I'm not sure why anyone would ever want to take white shields
With activating on a 3+ or 4+ if the yhave a blast marker - they are just way to unreliable to ever see a game


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:53 pm 
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I like sitting them on a blitz or another objective and have them in over watch to just have a force there or to act as a speed bump/ human shield, but your right they are a pain to activate.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:27 am 
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Inhir wrote:
I like sitting them on a blitz or another objective and have them in over watch to just have a force there or to act as a speed bump/ human shield, but your right they are a pain to activate.


But for the same cost, why not take a Karskin unit with a psyker. They're just better in my opinion


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:51 am 
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for me its just I don't own enough Karskin to fill out my army which I know I need to fill out I can only field 4 formations of them


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:47 am 
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Inhir wrote:
for me its just I don't own enough Karskin to fill out my army which I know I need to fill out I can only field 4 formations of them


So you take a sub par formation because you don't have enough of the better models. Not exactly a solid argument for them staying as they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:47 am 
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Bat Rep time -

http://d6addiction.blogspot.com.au/2017/01/thursday-night-game-nigh-cadians-take.html


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:24 pm 
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http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32206

Cadian feeback:

Need to get a few more game under my belt with the Cadian’s as I really didn’t get a chance to stress test many of the Cadian specific formations in the game.

Cadian Regimental HQ – Leviathan – game plan was to have it secure 2 objectives (1 Tau 1 Cadian) and act as a deterrent. Did it’s job well and scared away Tau from 2 objectives as they did not want to commit to that side of the table in force (focused on Warlord BTS and Blitz on far side of table). All it got to do was put down blast markers with it’s 90cm Barrage.

Kasrkin Infantry Company – game was to have them occupy and defend objectives (Blitz and garrison own objective) with AA support (provided by Hydras and Regimental HQ with Sabres). They did their job but were not stress tested as they only got to put blast markers on units with the commanders 45cm gun and 1 engage action against a Tau Recon formation which they were going into the engagement with a +3. I feel there stats and price good where they are given they are foot infantry (did not try any of the mounted options).

Sentinel Squadron – didn’t affect much with their shooting (just blasts) so I feel are appropriately costed. Highlight was engaging the damaged Riptide unit with the support of the Warlord and winning the engagement.

Hellhound Platoon – nothing of note happened with this unit during the game. They doubled and hurt a Tau Recon formation and then did a hold action. I think they are OK the way they are and costed appropriately.

Cadian list definitely has it's own feel to it that differs from the Steel Legion list. I like it and think it should be put forward for approval. Only unit that I feel needs some work is the Ordinatus Cadia (because it is subpar for a 550 points formation)


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:46 pm 
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I don't really like this list. Right now it isn't really Cadian, just discount Stromtrooper army. You removed scout from Kasrkins and dropped them down 25 points. Scout doesn't add much in the grand scheme. It has its uses, but its only situational. The result is you just remove it to make a unit that is more focused and cheaper, which is min maxing.

A lot of the more recent battle reports don't use standard infantry at all. And why would you when you can get a cheap unit that has PG and a 5+ save for the price of 4 bases of standard infantry that are essentially just fodder?

You should remove the Kasrkin option from your standard formation lists and make them a support formation only. They are supposed to be Cadian SF anyway not something you can just spam. Make the formation allow you to choose if you want them to be mounted.

Your standard formations (whiteshield and cadian infantry company) should have the option for chimera upgrades.

You should make white shields different than standard infantry. Something like 175 for 16 bases and change their FF to 6+.

If I am reading this right Battle Psykers seem OP. You should make them an 0-1 per unit. You are essentially giving yourself the option to add in up to 6 MW at 4+ FF with an invul save. Consider dropping the invul save as MW aren't something that should be so easy to access. Again that is skirting the min maxing thing.

Why are you Cadian Sentinels better than standard ones and cheap than them?

Sabre platforms are just cheaper and better than taking support squads. Also fluff wise sabre platforms are immobile. It would be more fluffy to bump up the price and give them teleport and immobile then move them to support formations not upgrades. 3 platforms for 150 with teleport to compete with Hydras. So on the one hand you get 6 shots on a moving platform. On the other, you get the option to place an in cover AA unit anywhere you want to add in 3 shots at shorter range, but more flexible deployment.

Your Stormlords looks to cheap. Discount Vulcan mega bolter and 8 unit transport is awesome. It is significantly better than 6 chimeras at 5+ save which would be 6 ML shots and 10 transport.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:21 am 
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Hey Cadian humans, the Squat AC here.

As you may know, the Squats and the Cadians share identical Leviathan rules, and I just got some questions about the Fighting Platform rules.

I thought I would post my thoughts up here, to see how these replies match up to how you cadians have been playing them

[quote="Elsaurio"
[quote="Taiaha]

5) How does the "Fighting Deck" work?
a) Can the units be swapped whenever I like? e.g. if it is transporting (warriors+thunderfire) during an Advance action, I could shoot the Thunderfire, while an Assault, i'd use the warriors.
b) Would Thunderfires provide AA while being transported in the Leviathan?
c) Do the units on the fighting deck take casualties if the Leviathan comes under fire?
d) Do the units on the fighting deck take casualties in an assault?

Thanks![/quote]

Ah the fighting deck! Remember it is a brand new addition to the Leviathan so I am eagerly awaiting feedback.
It needs to be tested to see how it works first. I'm going to apply some answers here and we will see how they play out in game. In essence I'm going to come down on the side of the leviathan as I want to encourage it to be used.

a) I'd say at the start of each Leviathan's activation, you choose what units are on the fighting platform. This cannot be changed until the start of the next leviathan's activation. When loading your leviathan up with units, place the 6 you have chosen in a sensible location to remind you (maybe beside the gameboard in a particular spot, or you are keen, bluetack them directly on top of the model).

If this seems strange, remember you have to use a similar convention to decide where to place your infantry when hitching a ride in any other transport in the game.

b) Yes, if it is one of the units that has been chosen to be in the fighting platform.

c & d) No, units on the platform cannot be targeted/killed while the leviathan lives (otherwise there wouldn't be much of a benefit of having the platform at all.)

I'll crosspost this to the cadian section, to see what they think of the idea.[/quote]

Eager to hear your thoughts


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:45 am 
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Hey Ben

The fighting deck works the same as a bunch of other "open topped/fighting decked vehicles" you choose when it's appropriate what is being used from the top. Swap and change as needed.
Treat is similar to the same as Dark Eldar transport where infantry can shoot and FF from the vehicle, just here we are limited to 6 at a time (or 4 in the stormlord)

Secondly, Leviathans can't transport Thunderfires, only infantry (Thunderfires are a AV)


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:02 am 
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Mard wrote:
Hey Ben

The fighting deck works the same as a bunch of other "open topped/fighting decked vehicles" you choose when it's appropriate what is being used from the top. Swap and change as needed.
Treat is similar to the same as Dark Eldar transport where infantry can shoot and FF from the vehicle, just here we are limited to 6 at a time (or 4 in the stormlord)

Secondly, Leviathans can't transport Thunderfires, only infantry (Thunderfires are a AV)



So the correct rules are:


a) Units on the fighting platform can switch around at any time at the Leviathan's choice?

b) Yes.

c & d) No, units on the platform cannot be targeted/killed while the leviathan lives (otherwise there wouldn't be much of a benefit of having the platform at all.)

Is that how Cadians/Dark Eldar have been playing it?


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:05 am 
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Yes,

But the tested and used Leviathan in Cadians specifically states only 16 INFANTRY stands. So that is where we are coming from.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:48 am 
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Elrik wrote:
@beefcake I agree that making kasrkin mechanized "only" might not be the best option because of costs and activation count.

My main point was that "This list focus on Infantry and War Engines" and I kind of missed war engines in the list presented in the thread and play tests. Comparing to other imperial guard armies it feels like this focus is already taken and better incarnated by the DKoK (gorgons, shadowswords, warhounds, backed by lots of massive infantry). And the "some footslogging-activation count" is already taken by the steel legion.
Perhaps Cadians should get some fundamental changes to make them "elite shock troopers with war engines/tanks"? A slot that is not taken by any other IG army. Or at least make Whiteshields a viable low-cost-activation-count-unit, not the elite Kasrkin?

But I'd be glad if the thought of making the storm lord a support option is considered :)


I've been considering the following:

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Cadian Shock Troopers (NetEA v1.5 *DEVELOPMENT*)
==================================================

CADIAN REGIMENTAL HEADQUARTERS [625]
1 Imperial Guard Supreme Commander unit, 7 Kasrkin units and 1 Leviathan Mobile Command Centre, Sanctioned Psykers (1 Sanctioned Psyker unit), Sabre Platforms (3 Sabre Platforms)

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [325]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units, Assault Transport (1 Stormlord)

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [325]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units, Assault Transport (1 Stormlord)

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

SUPER HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

SUPER HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

SUPER HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [175]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units

FLAK BATTERY [150]
3 hydras

HELLHOUND PLATOON [250]
6 Hellhounds

13 Activations with 6 War Engines. I might swap out the Hellhounds for a Stormsword and 3 more Sabres. Another Alternative would be:

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Cadian Shock Troopers (NetEA v1.5 *DEVELOPMENT*)
==================================================

CADIAN REGIMENTAL HEADQUARTERS [650]
1 Imperial Guard Supreme Commander unit, 7 Kasrkin units and 1 Leviathan Mobile Command Centre, Sabre Platforms (3 Sabre Platforms), Sanctioned Psykers (2 Sanctioned Psyker units)

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [325]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units, Assault Transport (1 Stormlord)

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [325]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units, Assault Transport (1 Stormlord)

SUPER HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

SUPER HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

FLAK BATTERY [150]
3 hydras

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

COLOSSUS SQUADRON [250]
1 Marauder Colossus

COLOSSUS SQUADRON [250]
1 Marauder Colossus

COLOSSUS SQUADRON [250]
1 Marauder Colossus

Only 12 Activations, but 8 War Engines!

Has anyone play-tested the Colossus. I don't really see it in anyone's lists and it seems a bit expensive compared to the DKoK version (+1 Armour and MW on the barrage, but no Lascannons for +100 seems like a bit much). Any thoughts on dropping these to 200-225?


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:46 pm 
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Played a game yesterday with my Cadians and used this list:

Regimental HQ
Kasrkin Coy + psyker + 2 Stormlords
Kasrkin Coy + Sabre + Fire support
Kasrkin Coy + Sabre
Hellhounds
Hellhounds
Hydras
Deathstrikes
Shadowsword
Stormsword
Thuderbolts

My idea was quite simple, put objectives close, push forward with the HQ and big coy and engage with hellhounds.

My opponent s quite new to Epic (but a seasoned gamer) and played Tau, with imho too few markerlights. Both my single super heavies were blown to pieces 1st turn by a starship and broadsides (after a unneccesary bold move with the stormsword). One of the stormlords also got it at the last activations when a large airbattle was fought (AX 10 vs flak & T-bolts vs Barracudas ). After those opening salvos, I got this experience:

- Hellhound formations of 6 are fast and deadly (as long as you make your regroup rolls, I passed less than 50%, and had to marshall them once or twice, but saved more than 50% and I guess that evened it out).
- The Leviathan / Stormlords are slow... Against a shooty army it's not that easy to get them in support positions for the hellhounds.
- The footslogging Kasrkin were much more fun than I had anticipated. But their main use is still AA. :)
- The list are a bit short on AT.

Some more thoughts, of which some is more a stream of consciousness:

Activation count: I know that there is some thoughts about the Cadians having access to lots of WE and still get many activations. I don't think that my 11 activations with 5 WE is over the top, but the 13/6 or 12/8 above might be, save they have very weak AA. The cheap activations are: Hydras, Kasrkin, Sentinels, Shadowswords.
The way I see it, less than 3 activations/1000 pts is few, about 3,3 is "normal", 4+ is many.
- Hydras: all IG have them, and they are fine that way. An army of hydras will have a lot of broken formations after turn 1. I have never seen hydra spam.
- Kasrkin: I like the theme of a storm trooper army, please don't touch it. The pricing in some configurations seems to be fine: The WE-mounted costs 325+ or 500+ pts. Not really activation-spamming. With fire support you nudge at the same pricing. Naked or with sabre platforms they are cheap enough to be numerous.
Most lists in this thread includes 2-3 units of them, most often with sabre platforms, and these might be used for spamming activations and "locking up" shadowswords. Juding the lists above, shadowswords seems to be the answer to some/most problems. Making the sabre immobile is quite boring, but a points increase to 75 pts could be in order. It's probably a better way to get AA than any other IG have. If you raise it to 100 pts, and give it either 15 cm speed (like the rest of the unit to simplify) or better 45 cm range (like other autocannons) I wouldn't protest. The naked kasrkin can't do very much more than ping a BM with the commander's autocannon. Perhaps removing it, would force the Cadians to buy some kind of upgrade (and negate spamming) or just have a not-very-useful-min-max-shameful formation. The autocannon commander is somewhat out of the theme in my opinion anyway.
- Sentinels: I haven't used them, but they seem quite rubbish autocannon-LV, except for activation count. Could one thought be to adress the list's lack of AT by giving them a lascannon or something instead and a points increase?
- Shadowswords: well, they are what they are. Imho the list are a bit short on good AT-fire and Shadowswords are a quick fix that make the list a high activation WE-killer.

AT:
The list is a bit short on AT unless you have couple of shadowswords, ordinatus or russ-platoons. In the case of Leman Russ I'd go for the demolishers instead to keep the engage-theme of the army. I don't know if this really is a problem or more of a reasonable/thematic weakness of the list. Perhaps one could argue of giving the infantry more platform options, or a small tank hunter-formation (3 tanks). But I will have to play lots of more games before I know.

Whiteshields (and other infantry):
As they are know, they wont recieve a baptism of fire. What about making a Infantry company, about 13-17 stands strong, of regulars and whiteshields? Have it at 8 regulars + 4 whiteshields and a commander at about 200-250 pts. Options: add more whiteshields or regulars at a 1+1 ratio (and all the other options with fs, platform etc). Then make the whiteshields into SHIELDS with no autocannons, but some kind of grot-rule. Perhaps this should have been under next headline...
As long as kasrkin have all the options regular infantry have, are cheaper, better and cooler, Cadians will have lots of activations and no regulars/whiteshields. But then again, Kasrkin in WE engaging and fighting at close range is a cool theme. ;)

Wild and crazy ideas:
What about giving the kasrkin options to buy Scout or Teleport (with no other options than fire support), or making Chimera/Vultures into an upgrade of the company? Think of the kasrkin as an elite to be sent in at the schwerpunkt, perhaps all the platforms should be reserved for the infantry coy and all kasrkin should be mounted in some way to represent that they are "the cavalry". In my army above, changeing the AA-kasrkin to infantry would cost 150 pts, the hydras would have to go. Pretty much the same army with one activation less. If high activation/lots of WE are a concern.

All the best
/Erik


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:51 pm 
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Can mounted units (Sabre Platform) be transported in the Leviathan and shoot out with their AA guns etc?


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