If you want to represent the extensively bionic nature of the IH, why not just boost them to a 3+ save? Basically for exactly the same reason as the plague marines get it, they are far more difficult to injure than even a normal marine....

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ok so what are the options?


* Blanket 3+ save on inf (with a price increase)

* Blanket inv save on inf (with price increase)

* Formation upgrade 3+ save on inf

* Formation upgrade inv save on inf

* Blanket inf save at -1 vs hits from BM (outside of assault hackdown) (current rule, no cost)

* Ignore 1st AP hit per activation (Deezal's suggestion)


Got to say looked at like that taking bionics back to a formation upgrade the player buys seems the easiest way to implement tough bionics (inv or 3+) without forcing more expensive tactical formation (which isn't a great option here).

Also just been pointed out to me that at present the list lets you take 3 leaders in a formation, (+2 vet , +1 char), this should be worded so you can only get max 2 leaders, in whatever combination.

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Hey thanks for the quick response...I'm fairly inexperienced with Epic... so all suggestions should be taken with a grain of salt...

Overall I think the crux of the Iron Hands ethos is there....I think you've covered things nicely... but we obviously need more testing..

As someone who does like keeping with the fluff elements of an army I hope some of these additional suggestions might be taken into your consideration.

Centurions - Iron Hands along with their battle tanks and Dreadnoughts do have a significant number of Centurion suits.
Techmarine upgrades for all formations - and a potential rule for Blessing of the Omnissah? (possibly the ability to remove blast markers from vehicle units? Or provide cover save for INF in buildings)
Access to Contemptor Dreadnoughts as an option along with Dreadnoughts, Venerable and Iron Clad

Keep up the awesome work

The more I think about it, maybe the resilience angle of the bionics isn't the avenue to go with, but more with system augmentations... bionics eye improve accuracy, bionic legs improve stability etc etc... While I like the idea of a 3+ save...

Cheers

I'm testing rules for centurions at present in the IF list, would be happy to see them in IH

also have techmarines, only available to thunderfires and bastions, but they are marine characters (inv save, EA+1 MW, leader) with no other abilities, they work really well and for my money the leader rule is a simple way of them making repairs and assisting with targeting etc

on the bionics aspect, I say drop it entirely, you either end up with a niche effect that has very little in-game impact, or a significant effect which you have to cost appropriately.... I think giving increased access to dreads, razorbacks and a different list structure is more than enough flavour for the list without making up new special rules

If I HAD to pick, I'd go with allowing bionics as an upgrade for a formation which gives a 3+ save representing their increased reslience, in an army without terminators it gives the option to add a tough formation for deep striking

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+1 from me.

Tech Marine CH idea is a no brainer, especially for the IH, and the ability to toughen up a formation to Armour 3+ as an option (perhaps tied in with kyussinchains IF centurions idea) is good way to represent a formation of IH that have headed down the "tape that VCR to my forehead" path a little more than their brethren.

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Not replying fully now, but just to head off the Tech marine point.

Yes, tech marines are no a 'no-brainer' fluff wise, but their implementation as in the IF list is the same as veteran sergeant (except tech have inv). It's pretty much the same upgrade by a different name. No point having two pretty much identical characters, i'd suggest just modelling the veteran sergeant as a techmarine at player discretion. Could re-name the upgrade to 'veteran seargent/techmarine' but it does the same thing.


Another suggestion from jimmy is to have bionics negate the extra BM from crossfire. But the 3+ armour upgrade sounds good, and would be easier to implement with the fixed formation sizes in the new list structure.

Just been helping playtest centurions for IF list, report tomorrow.

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thanks for the list, hopefully get to test it soon - building a IH army to go with my 30K/40K scale army...

just starting to go through the army list and noticed the costs for the land raiders and razorbacks in the assault transports section have been swapped around...although 25 point land raiders as transports would be very nice indeed

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gah, will correct that when i sort out the new list document …

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thanks - after auditing blood bowl tournament results the last couple of nights i can sympathise with how easy it is to do something like that

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hi it's Trent
just letting you guys know another game using IH, Tuesday night.

here the link

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=29692

sorry in advance if the link doesn't work.

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Regard
Trent

G'day Apoc,

I'm finally getting back to looking at the IH after a long time away:

Some points after reading through this thread and the 1.1.1upgrade pdf:

1. Where are the unit stats - pdf only seems to have army list.

2. I see the terminators are gone and now reflected through vet sarg, however where have the commander/librarian/chaplains gone?

3. Increase Pred/vindicators is cool, is this option for LR as well?

4. LR & razorback upgrade option has typo, points are around the wrong way.

5. Did IH keep the LC / TL plasma variant of the razor back?

6. Whilst I love the idea of a dreadnought talon, I feel it should be limited in some way. IH have a lot of them for sure but they're not exactly line infantry either.

7. "Razorbacks" is listed as an upgrade against the scouts but isn't an actual upgrade (though i understand your intent)


Overall I like the fact its going forwards again and list structure is neater than our earlier efforts but I can't help but feel the knife has been a little too deep in cutting away from the codex. No chaplains, no terminators, limited air assault, no great firepower increase to offset, no landspeeders to control ground/ZOC people of help with cross fire. No bikes even?

If the IH are only limited to drop pod assault or trying to out shoot people with marginally larger marine armour formations I'm worried your making them fight with both hands behind their back.

Cheers

thanks for the comments orton, just got back from holiday, ill adress your points over the next couple of days.

stats are as the old list unless noted, atm 1.1.1 is a list only

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1. unit stats:
Ironclad proposed stats are in first post of this thread. Cult of the Machine special rule may be removed, playtest either way.

2. Iron Fathers take the role of Chaplains. Librarians were missing from Jimmy's last list and i carried it across – thoughts? Lack of commander is a mistake on my part.

3. Can't think of a reason not to allow LR on armoured support upgrade. Anyone else have thoughts on that?

4. oops, thought i'd fixed that, sorry.

5. For now yes, im still wondering how best to incentivise IH razorback uptake

6. Any simple ways to implement this? I agree they are not line inf, but the list (any marine list) lets you take an army of all wirlwinds as well if you want, so i'm not sure it's in the scope of the list to solve.

7. oops … thought i'd fixed that as well, ill have a look and see if i have a more up to do date file i forgot to upload (will check for file tomorrow).



Other choices: i've had a very harsh chop back here to concentrate list theme. Other bits can be added back in little by little if needed. The lack of bikes and speeders (marine 'cavalry') represents the IH preference for mechanised infantry. Re-inclusion is up for discussion, land speeders may well be needed, but marine scouts are an excellent formation.

Part of the reason is to give this list a very strong identity. IH should not just be codex marines with extra dreads. Loss of terminators is non-negotiable as far as i'm concerned, it's one of *the* defining IH characteristics (before GW killed all the old fluff). They get get dreads in return, but yeah the list may be weaker than codex, but does get access to extra inspiring and leader.

I will look for a new list file, i'm sure I changed some of the mistakes before … sorry!

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