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Iron Hands v1.1

 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:12 pm 
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:
Thanks for the detailed feedback, especially on bionics pricing.

Deezal wrote:
is 0-2 Iron Clad restriction needed?? Duno, the IC are great though offering good option in CC and FF.

From the list you posted I think there has been confusion on the dreadnought/IC upgrade 'Add up to 2 of the following in any combination:' means you can only have max 2 upgrades from all of +dread +IC on a formation. You've added 1 dread and 2 IC for a total of 3 upgrades, should be 2 max.


Thanks for the reply :)

I purchased the Dread Talon which is 4 Dreadnoughts and added 2 IC upgrades, then added a further dreadnought which was upgraded to a Ven dread for a total of 2 normal Dread, 2 IC dreads and a Ven Dread in the formation.... Which I think fits the criteria?? Let me know if not, i'll fix that up for future games.

Drop Pods and Dreads...

Yes Drop Podded every game.
In game 1,2 and 3, Dropped in on turn 3
Games 4-5 turn 2 for some variety, they got quite hammered in turn two...

I don't know there needs to be any additional charge for Dreads in Drop Pods..... I think they are costed quite well, they just don't survive on foot... and it enables them to get where you need them... In fact the rest of the army does take quite a beating against high activation lists, while waiting for the Drop Pods to arrive, so I think its the risk a player takes to send them in via Drop Pods.

I'm a Iron hands fan, so I'm going to enjoy them regardless of rules, but I think they are coming along nicely. They are not, nor will be a top tier army, as most Marines aren't and when you compare even this experimental list to Necrons, Squats and Eldar, its not even close.

I think you and others are doing a great job, so I hope this little experience has been helpful :)

Deez


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:29 pm 
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Deezal wrote:
I purchased the Dread Talon which is 4 Dreadnoughts and added 2 IC upgrades, then added a further dreadnought which was upgraded to a Ven dread for a total of 2 normal Dread, 2 IC dreads and a Ven Dread in the formation.... Which I think fits the criteria?? Let me know if not, i'll fix that up for future games.


ah, fair enough i think i mis-read the list notation then – so did that leave the formation size on 7? If you buy 2 iron clads that maxes out the 'dreadnought' upgrade, but then yes you can take an extra dread as long as it's a ven dread via the venerable upgrade (so the +1 Dread in your lists is the same unit as the ven dread).
As long as the formation ended up on table as 7 models, of which 2 were iron clad stats and 1 was ven, then it's fine and just a difference of notation.


Deezal wrote:
Yes Drop Podded every game.
In game 1,2 and 3, Dropped in on turn 3
Games 4-5 turn 2 for some variety, they got quite hammered in turn two...

good to know, thanks

My thinking on the drop pod costs was that as a stock formation they compare well to codex devastators in drop pods … just something to keep an eye on when most lists will probably be taking 1–2+ drop-dread formations. Deathwind pods are very good, spamming 200pt deathwinds t1 could be a problem – not as good as drop-souts used to be (before their removal), but only 50pt more and 50pt cheaper than devs …

It's been a few months since I did a game with these guys (too much testing emps children and imp fists!) need to get some games in and take a really careful look at the different dread flavours and their costing in aggressive assault lists … no terminators hurts but dread formations with +25pt iron clads are very potent

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:43 pm 
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something like this would be interesting to test t1 drop … would fail utterly vs some armies, might be too much against others though

cruiser
dread talon (pods)
dread talon (pods)
dread talon (pods)
dread talon (pods)
dread talon (pods)
dreads + iron clad upgrades + ven upgrade ?+ SC?
dreads + 2 iron clad upgrades + ven upgrade (this makes an amazing air assault formation for only 300 pts … too amazing i think … :spin )
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?then some combo of thawks, scouts, and storm talons 'til points?

*edit, ive also just decided the dread upgrade wording is unclear and can be read several different ways anyway … i think the dread variant pricing and combination options need a detail re-look … need to find a balance between making up for no terminators and not leaving gaps for potentially exploitative upgrade combos!

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:26 pm 
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My personal view would be to make sure the upgrade is Add/Replace (needed for thawk) up to 2 IC Dreds OR add/replace 1 Ven Dread. The combo seems to be the issue here. I'm not as worried about spamming DW pods as in doing this the army is completely immobile and can be picked apart in detail.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:35 am 
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Quote:
Deathwind pods are very good, spamming 200pt deathwinds t1 could be a problem – not as good as drop-souts used to be (before their removal), but only 50pt more and 50pt cheaper than devs …


Again, my rules knowledge is still in its fledgling stages... but since you need the strike cruiser to deploy the pods, I thought it couldn't deploy until turn 2-3, maybe I am getting confused with Slow and Steady?? :eh

If that's the case, and you can planetfall on turn 1, it could be a much different scenario with all that deathwind... so maybe a "limit" on the dread talons that can deploy via drop pod would be worthwhile for balance... :-\

I'll try out a few option and see how it goes.... the fact you have to nominate drop pod coordinates prior to deployment makes it tricky to maximse any effect of of the deathwind. But I can totally see how it might be exploited...

Deez


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:08 am 
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Deezal wrote:
maybe I am getting confused with Slow and Steady?? :eh

I think so, unless your local tournament organiser has ruled otherwise.

Jimmy's solution for the 300pt iron clad + ven replacement upgrade air assault dread formation (can't take ven and iron clad in 1 formation) is a good fix for now.
Pods need testing with an eye to how they compare to codex devastators. The devs cost more but get +transport. Dreads can never take rhinos, but if they are given 'free' pods the points difference starts to look off. (obviously direct points comparisons don't take account of list context, and IH are lacking devs+terminators, but need looking out for). It might be that pods need to be +25pts, and/or that the dread talon becomes 225pt eventually depending on other changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:12 pm 
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Don't discount superior tactics though (using the old EUK term). Devs, unlike Dreds, can chose to take their free Rhinos (and mobility/BMs) and deploy ground pound once you know the enemy. That's a pretty powerful bit of flexibility there that, yes you could in theory do with Dreds but no one in their right mind would do (unless it's your blitz guard but if that's the base, you're already probably planning that so again, not really a thing).

Deezal, the Strike Cruiser doesn't have Slow & Steady so can arrive T1 if so desired.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Does the Dreadnought/Ironclad Dred obtained by unit swap counts into limits/restrictions of Dreadnought upgrade?

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:33 pm 
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No, it does not count.
(or should it? it was my intention that it wouldn't but that's a valid topic for discussion)

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:34 pm 
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I believe he's trying to build the ArmyForge files for this list.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:48 pm 
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I have no opinion if it should count or not. I plan to play IH, but with ... 30k list :) Anyway, you can check out your list on ArmyForge here.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:00 pm 
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so when reading the army list 1.0 for I H I personally feel that the extra troops you could bring with the demi company is a great way to get more troops on the field without costing to many pts and activations.
I wrote in the army forge post before asking the same question...
So is the 1.1 list in the revised version in army forge ? and do you have an army list like the 1.0 any where on pdf.
Why take away the demi company?
not used enough or to powerfull when play tested?


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:24 pm 
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if you check armyforge, it should have the list version in the top left corner, I've attached a picture, if the version matches the list version you're using from taccomms/net armageddon then they should be the same

please report any mistakes in the Armyforge thread, and I will correct them as soon as I can (I've got a big backlog at present, will be hoping to get it cleared on friday this week when I have time)


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:23 pm 
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its the right one.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands v1.1
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:26 pm 
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In 40k there is an option to take 'relic' leviathan dreadnoughts. If they were going to be in any EA list, it would be this one, in the same way IF get relic fellblade.

Id be thinking a 0–1 formation upgrade for clans or dread talons. Also somewhere safe to park your SC, as the SC *must* be placed in a dread if taken in this list.

EpicAU 30k has levs statted at RA4+ inv. This seems pretty hefty, but im so out of touch with 40k rules now its hard to make a comparison. Seem they have the same HP as a LR, but slightly lower armour?

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