As the poll says, there have been discussions about the Land Raider Achilles and its save....

so should it have an invulnerable save or not?

As far as I can tell, from a fluff POV and in the 40k rules it's significantly tougher than a land raider, whether this translates to shrugging off volcano cannons and deathstrikes is up for discussion

Friendly debate welcome

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Considering I was the most vocal about changing the stats I should point out that in my old age I thought it was in approved/developmental lists with it and we should be careful about tweaking it for the new and improved IF. I was totally wrong once I looked it up in the compendium. It was in the old IF list and the siege assault vanguard lists which we'rekinda rebooting. I've given it some thought. I vote we go 125 each/4 for 475 with RA3+ in some play testing and see if that's silly.

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with 3+ RA it should be 400 *minimum* for a formation of 4.... that makes it the toughest AV in the game pretty much.....

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well it is pretty much the toughest AV in the game. But yeah, point noted. It's tough and thus must be expensive as hell.

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Its meant to be the toughest AV in the game but an invulnerable save would cover it well, 3+ reinforced would be a step too far IMO.

For anyone not familiar with the Achilles or why it is tougher please have a quick read over the 40k wiki entry on it before voting, to make an informed decision - http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Land_Raider_Achilles Quick version is it has around 15% thicker armour and special nano scale protection against heat and laser weapons in all it's armour at the microscopic level. It's considerably tougher and harder to damage than any other Land Raider in it's 40k rules.

It had been tested and used with an invulnerable save for some time already in epic. It should cost more in (does in Frogbear's old Imperial Fists lists and other lists that already use it), not get better weapons and armour for free. In my opinion it would cost more than a regular Land Raider based on it's weapons alone, even without the extra survivability.

According to what I've read it is better against some types of weapons and not others (rending attacks whatever they are, monstrous creatures etc) so its getting buffed against stuff (heavy TK railcannons for example) that it doesnt deserve..... it is probably worth more than a land raider, but that's probably due to land raiders being overpriced

wraithguard arent nearly as tough as terminators in 40k (so I'm told) yet they have the same save in epic.... the price debate is another issue entirely

I'll go with the majority vote in this poll however

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This seems to be yet another case of Grandma Wendy selling a new toy.
FWIW, while the thoughts may be appealing, I think you are bumping into the maximums that are reasonable within the E:A game framework. Adding Invulnerable Save is a good move, and we might possibly consider buffing the weapon stats (twin linked usually improves stats by +1).

However I agree that 3+RA is probably going a step too far, especially with ATSKNF. This would raise the probability of saving a normal hit to 8/9 or ~89%.

And I also think that the appropriate cost of such a formation (425 or more) would quite probably render them unlikely to be taken, because other cheaper formations would be more attractive / usable. For many years the standard LR formation was not taken because it had a sub-par performance, and I do not see these 'buffs' and corresponding price-hikes making this version any more desirable.

But YVMV as they say, and it would make an interesting 'museum piece'.

I agree with Glyn that an invulnerable save is more appropriate for the reason that it has special armor that is particularly resistant to tank busting melta and lance weapons (the wikia above is not complete in that regard, although I am unable to find another reference at the moment). It gets damaged just the same as a regular LR by kinetic impact weapons. Unfortunately, there's not good way to translate that into the Epic ruleset other than the invulnerable save. RA 3+ is too much. If the tank was AV15 in 40k in addition to the special melta-resistant armor, I could see RA 3+.

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For me that it is already in lists is irrelevant when those lists are moribund or at the experimental stage with little testing especially if those stats aren't particularly user friendly. Question is how to balance 40k fluff and epic game play, IMO game play should be the dominant factor

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This sums it up for me mostly.

Normally I prefer to see units be on par with other lists but in this case I think an optional version can be trialled. That said, I don't really think 3+RA should be used.

+1

I also don't see in the wiki any mention of tougher armour than a regular Land Raider.

It's just a Land Raider with a different set of weapons.

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Here are the rules of the Achilles from IA 10:


Note: The Volcano Cannon is a Destroyer (aka Strength D) weapon. Thats opretty much everything TitanKiller in Epic.

The -1 on the Damage Table for Penetrating Hits IS a big boost. 3+RA seems to be justified.

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Or you couldargue that invulnerable save is enough on top of 4+RA and keep the game from snowballing....

1 in 6 chance of saving is minimal when you're talking about bouncing Deathstrikes etc. but the chance is there that you will if your armour is "ferromantically invulnerable."

(this is not the whole story bug gives an indication of the awesomeness of 3+RA)

previous discussion...

i vote: 4+,Inv

Adam, would it be relatively easy to produce a version of that graph for MW and TK hits too? would be very handy for the bigger picture

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