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Land Raider Crusader FF

 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:08 pm 
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Ok,

So I have been running LR Crusaders in my Space Wolves lists of late. I had four games with them at CANCON and just finished up a game with two in a Wolf Guard Detachment. So far I have found them to be an under-performer as a vehicle. Whilst it is nice to have EAs in FF, they are next to useless at 5+.

So I am wondering why the vehicle with two sets of Hurricane Bolters, Twin Linked Assault Cannons, Multi Melta and Frag Launchers has FF 5+, yet a Land Raider with Twin Linked LC and a HB is 4+ and the Predator Destructor with an Autocannon and two HB is also 4+?

To be frank the stat line in the compendium guys is a little odd, and needs some clarification. See below for two examples:

Land Raider Crusader AV 25cm 4+ 5+ 5+
Frag Launchers (base contact) (Assault Weapons) So what do they do in an assault? Is it EA+1CC?
Pair of Hurricane Bolters (15cm) (Small Arms) Again SA, but what EA+1?
Twin Assault Cannon 30cm AP5+/AT5+

Black Templars Land Raider Crusader AV 25cm 4+ 5+ 5+ Frag Launchers (base contact) (Assault Weapons)
Hurricane Bolters (15cm) (Small Arms), EA(+2)
Twin Assault Cannon 30cm AP4+/AT4+

I know there has been plenty of discussion in the past about this but I am after some clarification on what stats are supposed to be, because what they are right now is an RA Taxi.

Thanks in advance Dobbsy.

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Aaron


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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:18 pm 
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I'm not Dobbsy but i will answer this.

The Frag Launchers give it CC5+ instead of 6+

The current version of the NetEA Compendium has +2EA on the Hurricane Bolters in the Space Wolves Army List (and any other Space Marine lists which uses them).

3x FF5+ is a lot better than the 1x FF4+ of the generic Land Raider.
BTW the Predator Destructor has FF3+.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:35 pm 
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BL,

Thanks for the reply, but I am going to disagree with you. Whilst 3 dice are always better than 1, the value at 5+ is lacking. I can count in the last five games the number of times I have scored a hit with a LRC FF on my hands. The lack of a real ranged attack for the LRC would also lend one to spending points on a LR instead. I know that the formations I have taken with normal LR have out performed the ones with LRC.

I think this unit requires a rethink, and some testing at 4+, it costs the same but does not deliver in the game.

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Aaron


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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:11 am 
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I'm open to changes if people would like to see either a cheaper LRC, a single 4+FF or opt for a MM add-on as discussed previously(would probably reduce the FF if so). I always felt the addition of the Hurricane Bolters to the twin assault cannon should justify 4+ but went with the general feeling of everyone else.

Personally, I tend to see them as heavily armoured transports (to give the troops onboard a better chance to reach CC) with a bit of FF thrown in.

The price is just a mirror of all LR units at present but I think it's easier to come up with something for the same points if we are to change it.


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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:56 am 
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Mate,

Could we try it at FF 4+, with Hurricanes only giving EA+1.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:47 pm 
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Since that's statistically identical to 3x5+ on average, I'd say the question is should the Crusader hit more often but with fewer maximum hits or have 3 maximum hits but not be able to hit as often?

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:56 pm 
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The spew-storm bolter array seems more the latter than the former to me. However I will echo the sentiment that they do seem underwhelming when I've taken them. This is admittedly more likely due to my abilities as a general (or lack thereof) in slotting them in effectively (I expect they really synergize with LC assault drops vs on board deployments so fair enough). I personally think the stats are fine as is but the price is needed to be looked at - it's very shooty but not very discriminating). The temptation to try and use them like a zLR Phobos is probably a tactical error.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:49 pm 
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The EUK black templars list has ff4+ and EA+1 on the crusader, works quite effectively IMO, definitely worth a playtest :)

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:40 am 
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Seems a fair option. Let's get a few more comments on here about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:04 am 
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I had a think about this the other night Cal. Firstly I think its ok at present, maybe slightly over costed but generally ok.

What I think is needed is a change in the method of employment.

Consider that if you deploy it like a standard landraider it will likely be out of the fight until at least turn 2 and sometimes 3. Whilst the standard LR is a better "tank" and can generally be killing stuff from turn 1 with an advance or double.

The other downside to the crusader is that you get less of them to transport the formation, so when you consider the infantry inside, your essentially putting more eggs in less baskets.

What you need it to do is be in firefights as soon as possible and as often as possible to see a positive points return. Therefore how about using a landing craft to deliver it into the mix early on? then follow up with assault/double each turn to make sure its either engaging or lending supporting fire. If you remember my IG hydras they were always in the mix supporting a firefight here, combined assault there. They used to fire more than any other unit due to they way they operated. The advantage with marines is that you could use cheap units like speeders, bikes and scouts to trigget the assault whilst the crusaders and their passengers double around shooting first then support firing.

If it still turns out to be a poor choice then I suggest keeping the FF5+ , giving it the multimelta and letting the Multimelta confer a 5+ MW attack, giving it 1 MW on a 5+ and 2 standard on a 5+.

due to the short range and slow speed the MM shot will likely be on 6+ due to doubling and the above stats still only generate 1 hit on average with a 33% chance of one being a MW. of course some good rolling could see 3 hits but it the same when you shoot with normal Landraiders.

In summary - keep as is but try a different method of employment first. Should it still under perform then consider a Multimelta as standard - otherwise I think its ok.

my 2c anyhow.


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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:17 pm 
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This thread may be of interest=>
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=25034

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:57 am 
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Have been considering this more and I think we can move the LRC to the EUK stats. It's not a massive change, really.

Anyone have any negative views on it...?


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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:06 am 
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What lists does this effect?

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:10 am 
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Essentially the Space Wolves and Black Templars. I'll have to go through all the lists when I get a chance.


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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Crusader FF
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:44 am 
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I doubt that'll be a huge game changer. Both are still developmental, right?

edit: yes

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