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[NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)

 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Greetings JZ & uvenlord.

Seems I have found some time to surf the interwebs again.

Good discussion on the IH, where they are going and some of the issues with a codex divergent list.

If I may add my 2c to the latest:

I like the idea of ditching the aspirants and sticking with a single recon unit - be that a recon tactical or standard scout - either way I'm happy. The ability "scout" is needed on which ever unit you pick though, so it can perform its primary role both with and without IFV support.

I agree with uvenlord about the desire to have dreads be useful in the list outside of drop pod formations. I see this as the perfect list to include the dreadnought talon (say a formation of 4-6 dreads of mixed variety) and I believe this formation already exist in the siege assault lists.

The "bionics" rule is going to be difficult to balance although would be an interesting way to buff a handful of formations in the list to represent the IH veterans that aren't wearing the precious prized terminator armour (don't get me started on why a SM chapter so closely aligned to the Admech struggles for terminator armour - when every other new SM chapter on the block gets stocks at their creation...) Anyhow, that aside I'd think either an upgrade from 4+ to 3+ save for the Power Armoured marines in the formation or add invulnerable save would be the easiest two options to implement. Then limit the upgrade to perhaps a 0-2 per 5000pts?

To ans your Netepic questions JZ,

The IH have both the option to take Bombards and their veteran units benefit from an invulnerable save to represent the high level of bionic enhancement.

With regard to the razor backs its a tricky question - no doubt current fluff says the IH love the razor back and are the creators of the LC TLPG version but given that some people who may want to play this list will only have access to the current range (and maybe then only through 2nd hand shops or ebay) if we limit the list to a single option you might turn people away from the list? On the other hand if you leave all three options available... well, as you say the list already has a stack of extra units - I'm undecided on this one and I guess it depends on what else gets added or dropped.

Quote:
It's for the afore mentioned drop assault where AT/AP fire is not differentiated and you can soak up hits with infantry if needed.....

not really following you here but I will think of some other wording/use or stay silent...


I think what JZ meant to say was in an assault where FF hits can be allocated to closer infantry units or other dreads - thus protecting the venerable and your inspiring.


Regarding the discussion on devastators and tactical units, I'm happy with the change to 2x LC on the devastators but I thought the loss of the missile launcher on the tactical was a step too far. I think its needed to make the formation. The whole point of the Tac stand for me is its "jack of all trades, master of none" stats. If you go back to the HB (30cm 5+AP) then the unit struggles to find a place in the army list - as far as I'm concerned). As for the recon tactical - sure why not, its a new unit, but I'd suggest leaving the standard tactical unit alone.

That will do for now.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:44 pm 
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Great feedback everyone. I get the impression we're all heading towards the same conclusions independently.

First Uven, the line about garrisoned dreds with the recon formation was my poor attempt at humor. I meant that to come across as cheeky, which I failed at. Sorry for the confusion there. :)

Orton nailed my meaning about allocation of hits in an assault in Firefight perfectly. The survival of thus army is completely dependent on getting clans (note plural) into FF as fast as possible. All the goodies will get AT sniped at range if not carefully positioned otherwise. However the point of making the dreadnought a focal point to the list is a good one. I'll increase that to be making this the Preds and Dreds list (has a nice ring to it! O0 )

So for consideration and discussion:
-Razorback proliferation. I would like to see them more widely accessible to the list and be a major feature of the AV strength for the list. I am not worried about plasma models being available however as for instance GW never once made a Baal predator to production but that's never been an issue for the Blood Angels list. The fluff discovered by Orton showing the Iron Hands affinity for them was also after the initial framework for the list was laid down. Taking a fresh look at them would be in order I feel. Replacement of the Twin lascannon version with plasma variant is not going to cause me heartache however :)
-Special Rules. I think Cult of the Machine and Flesh is Weak is probably the way to go in the future. Lets put that R&D to rest and make a decision. Not like we cannot ever try out a new bionics idea in the future if we need to. However before I do read the separate post below on bionics.
-Aspirant/Recon Tac. Kill it with fire. Go back to standard Scout formation and move into restricted formations. Thoughts? Agreement or hate?
-Dreadnought mob. LETS DO IT!!! Anyone have a thought on limitations for this? I intend otherwise to straight steal use the formation from the Siege Assault Vanguard list.
-Wording clarifications. Many. Especially with transportation options for Veteran Officiers. Others that we need to handle?
-Bombard inclusion. Detachment of 3? Straight up stats from the guard lists? (They'll get ATSKNF mind you therefore a price bump may be in order unless we can disadvantage them otherwise)
-Tactical Units. Take the unit as presented in the 0.4.6-b list. (2xML).
-Devastators. 2xLascannon or Lascannon + Plasma guns?

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:41 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
-Special Rules. I think Cult of the Machine and Flesh is Weak is probably the way to go in the future. Lets put that R&D to rest and make a decision. Not like we cannot ever try out a new bionics idea in the future if we need to. However before I do read the separate post below on bionics.


OK promised separate post about bionics before we kill her unduly.
So options on the table are
-Increase armor save +1
-Adds Reinforced Armor to units without it. Units with it gain Invulnerable save. Invulnerable save get bupkis as there's nowhere else to go.
-Idea from the guard guy: Roll two dice with your normal saves. Take highest.
-Dump it :D

discus!

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Now we are getting somewhere! :)

"Almost" agreeing and moving forward.

Thanks ortron and JZ for your "input" and clarification to my understanding of the list and where it´s heading.

(Agree with ortron and thinks JZ last direction with the list feels very good.)

Razorbacks, yes. No need to worry about the right weapon.
Scouts. Take the standard scouts for now. Easy and simple. If we want to we can get there later...
Dread mob, yes
Bombards, agree on the price change. Perhaps as a 0-1 restriction also to keep the list away from the "siege masters"
I like ordinary tactical marines and 2xlascannon devestators


Quote:
First Uven, the line about garrisoned dreds with the recon formation was my poor attempt at humor. I meant that to come across as cheeky, which I failed at. Sorry for the confusion there.

:D And I went and reread the whole garrison chapter thinking "what the hell does he mean..."


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:41 pm 
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uvenlord wrote:
:D And I went and reread the whole garrison chapter thinking "what the hell does he mean..."


Hahahah! Well it's good to reread things occasionally just to keep them fresh :D

Anyways getting serious. Here's my first pass at a dread formation. Feedback greatly anticipated!

Dreadnought Phalanx
4-6 Dreadnoughts in any combination
Upgrades: Commander, Venerable Dreadnought
200 points (+50 for each additional dreadnought)

Sitting here drinking coffee (jetlag's a bitch) this AM this looks like it could be very very fun to field (already thinking of naughty ways to use this against my Biel Tan and Steel Legion local players). I expect this is a total bullet magnet but it could a CC nightmare to handle :D

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:50 pm 
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Quote:
Dreadnought Phalanx
4-6 Dreadnoughts in any combination
Upgrades: Commander, Venerable Dreadnought
200 points (+50 for each additional dreadnought)


Looking good, a nice clean start. :)

(After some playtesting it would be nice if you could mix in some marines, perhaps a veteran officer upgrade? I really like the fluff about the chapter where they mix terminators and dreadnoughts with ordinary marines)


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:59 pm 
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That works for me. You got the points, no reason to not allow it. So basically this

Dreadnought Phalanx
4-6 Dreadnoughts in any combination
Upgrades: Commander, Venerable Dreadnought, Veteran Officers, Great Council Retinue
200 points (+50 for each additional dreadnought)

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:37 pm 
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:)

will this be a "clan" or a "detachment"?


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:40 pm 
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Probably a detachment. Follows existing precedence on other lists with dread mobs (Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors) and seems to make sense there.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Here's the Proposed Iron Hand 0.4.8 list

We've got the above Dread Phalanx added. I decided to go with it in the core as we're trying to make that a list focus :D
Bionics has been taken out behind the woodshed and shot
Codex scouts returned. Recon and Aspirant buried next to bionics
Everyone can pretty much take Razorbacks now
Due to fact that we can take termie based units with our phalanx we should allow them to drop pod as well ala Raven Guard
Attachment:
Iron Hands Chapter Army List.pdf [639.25 KiB]
Downloaded 889 times

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Nice, will read this tonight :)

(Is there any real difference between core and detachment now ;) )

/uven


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:29 pm 
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Now, pretty much nothing. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:48 am 
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G'day again,

Thanks for latest update JZ.

As usual, I'll now offer up some comments to the Iron Hand's brains trust :)

1. List format
Now that clans and detachments are essentially the same thing, may I suggest you combine them into "Iron Hands Detachments" rather than have two groups in the army list. Then just use "1+" and "0-1" modifiers, that you already have, to ensure the standard clan is taken at least once and the mobile fortress is a one off.

Dread detachment - Yay!!!

2. Restricted formations.
There is still a lot of stuff in here, I think the standard assault marines could live in the clans/detachments list. After all the iron hands have no issues with getting in your face and beating you to a pulp. Their ability to air assault will still be limited though through the limitation on flyers. Assault units backed up by vindicators or dreadnoughts (especially an iron clad or siege dread) fits well into my image of Iron Hands but I guess that's my 2c.

Also in this section is the Warlord and Reaver battle groups. I think I know what you wanted to achieve here but I'd never bother with the warhound upgrade because its not useful. It becomes a very expensive formation that will probably be inefficient because all titans will have to move and act together. Its likely to overkill a formation a turn and the battle titan becomes an anchor for the warhounds who will struggle to exploit their strength which is speed. Personally I'd stick with standard options of Warlord, Reaver, 1-2 warhounds.

3. Upgrades
Scout formation has "sniper" but option isn't listed in the "upgrades" list.

"Recon Squad" exists in "upgrades" list but no clan/det can take it (don't think its required as IH aren't known for big scout elements as each clan takes care of its own recruitment, meaning the are unlikely to have more than 10-20 at any one time. (perhaps recon det could be 0-1 per clan?)


5. Units
"Great Council Retinue" (GCR) - no technical problem with this as it stands, just an alternative option:
Given you already have the venerable dread and veteran officers units, why not just make the GCR a supreme commander character upgrade like normal marine lists - thus conferring the "Supreme Commander" skill to either unit. To further explain, the current GCR is almost identical to the vets, but if you removed their "Thick Rear Armour" and gave them "Invulnerable Save" to represent the bionics, then there is no need for an additional unit (that's almost identical to the vets). Given we were talking of ditching the Bionics rule this might be a way of keeping the theme of veterans being heavily augmented without the need of further special rules.

Further the Venerable dread is extremely tough at 3+ reinforced. I know he's good but should he be that good? maybe dial it back to a 4+ reinforced

To summarise, you would then have
Type Armour CC FF
Vets INF 4+ 3+ 3+ as per stats Reinforced, Invl Save, May Drop Pod
Ven Dread AV 4+ 3+ 4+ as per stats Reinforced, walker, fearless, Inspiring

Either unit could be upgrade to the Great Council member/retinue by the addition of the Sup Comd rule but without need for a specific GCR unit. Just feels neater to me...

And lastly (I go on don't I?).. What about the bombard, and thudd guns/graviton guns? These sounded pretty cool and seem more Iron Hand(ish?) than Storm Talons and THawk bombers, although I understand you put these in there due to the lack of navy support.

I think ditch the bomber & talon, you've got the base thunderhawk and hunters for AA. Then bring in some infantry support weapons (which can drop pod) and/or the bombards. If your really keen for more aircraft the storm eagle or caestus seems more in line with Iron Hand way of war.

Well that's enough for now, otherwise looking good and happy with what your doing so far JZ. Cheers to uvenlord for your input as well.

Regards
Geoff


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:59 pm 
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+1 to everything ortron said (except the venerable save, in my pdf it is 4+)

Now the list looks like it is getting somewhere, good work JZ!

If we revert to ordinary titans we might want to find another way of showing their special bond with the mechanicum... no idea how just now though...

Why not go for the usual airplanes? isn't they part of the mechanicum (sort of anyway)

Why the change to hvy flamer and assaultcannon for the vets?

Not sure I want to turn the Iron Hands into a siege regiment but where are the bombards :)


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:44 pm 
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Quote:
(except the venerable save, in my pdf it is 4+)

Ignore me, I'm on drugs...

Sorry


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