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[NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)

 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Well, the point is that they are an activation - you could simply stand down 10 times and not use them at all (very boring, but you get the idea), so that the remainder of the army could move once the opponent is out of activations. This would be legal in the 1/3 points 'restricted' section of a 3K army - leaving you with lots of Iron Hands 'ground pounders' to play with - though admitedly it might be quite a challenge to win this way :D


True you can do all that but you could do that with any aircraft already (and probably would find yourself without friends really quick lol!) :D The real issue around allowing 1 or 2 was to help out in lower point games where the IH really have the potential to hit stall speed on activations already and taking a little air cover when needed exasperated the situation.

Ginger wrote:
To the stats, thanks for the restraint, though I still wonder about the role of the ST. If it is indeed an "Air superiority" fighter, it would seem appropriate for the Twin HB to have AA5+ (like other units) wouldn't it?
Also, just for legibility, I would change the order of the wording to place the Typhoon missile upgrade at the bottom of the stats.


Hrmmm they do on my local copy and what I posted in the official ST thread. Operator (me) error perhaps? They are intended to have that AA attack.

Ginger wrote:
Charging 25 points for the upgrade takes some of the sting out of the 45cm shot, though it is still dangerously close to setting and following precedents / power creep etc; IMO only Bombers should have 45cm range weaponry, Fighters and FBs being restricted to a maximum of 30cm irrespective of the weapon involved, which allows standardised AA weapon ranges etc. (but that is probably no surprise ;) ).

I'm good with a 30cm pod range and yes, the +25 take a formation of two up to 225 points, a pretty expensive proposition for flyers when TBolts are 175.

Anyone have issue with a quick edit and repost? Going once...twice...

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:19 pm 
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To the stats, the copy I downloaded was here - and does not have AA in the Twin HB (as well as the presentation being slightly confusing).

And while you can stall with other A/c, this cannot be done so extensively. If you really want singltons for 100 points, you will need to find a way to close this particular abuse - they would be a horrendous way of polishing off broken formations . . . . .


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:32 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
To the stats, the copy I downloaded was here - and does not have AA in the Twin HB

Well GOLLY, look at that. let's fix that!

Ginger wrote:
(as well as the presentation being slightly confusing).

Please detail as I want things to be clear to the reader. Let's have that feedback and take action before we publish an update.

Ginger wrote:
And while you can stall with other A/c, this cannot be done so extensively. If you really want singltons for 100 points, you will need to find a way to close this particular abuse - they would be a horrendous way of polishing off broken formations . . . . .

Yup. Let's brainstorm on some ideas:
-you can only have as many ST formations as clans
-you can only take one singleton formation per x number of points
-flights of two only and call it a day

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:00 pm 
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To the presentation this is what I meant :-
    Twin Assault Cannon - - - - - 15cm - - - AP4+/AT4+/AA5+ . . . . Forward Arc
    Twin Heavy Bolter - - - - - - - 15cm - - - AP4+/AA5+
      OR
    Typhoon Missile Launcher - - 45cm - - - AP4+/AT5+ . . . . . . . . Forward Arc

    Note:-
    May be armed with either Heavy Bolters OR Typhoon missile launcher Pod (at +25 points) not both.

Checking up on the THawk and others, the Twin HB range is 15cm, not 30cm. Also, I do quite like the idea of not restricting the Twin HB arc of fire; this presents a more agile style of fighter as well, as it then provides more AA cover once in position.

As to formation constraints, I would be sorely tempted to leave them as pairs. If desperate, you might consider 0-1 singlton of either type (so +25 if a Typhoon) to represent formations that have broken up/lost units etc.

Lastly, how about leaving the Typhoon at range 30cm with the constraint that the number of Typhoon armed a/c may not exceed normal STs? IMO the cost would then be 200 points in either configuration . . . .


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Let's mash up our ideas into the following (most of yours I'm down to get jiggy with :D )
How about=>

Storm Talon Gunship
Aircraft Fighter 5+ n/a n/a

    Twin Assault Cannon - - - - - 15cm - - - AP4+/AT4+/AA5+ . . . . Forward Arc
    Twin Heavy Bolter - - - - - - - 15cm - - - AP4+/AA5+
      OR
    Typhoon Missile Launcher - - 30cm - - - AP4+/AT5+ . . . . . . . . Forward Arc

    Note:-
    May be armed with either Heavy Bolters OR Typhoon missile launcher Pod not both.

1 for 125, 2 for 200. One Storm Talon per formation may be upgraded to a Typhoon pod for +25 points. You may not have more Typhoon armed Storm Talons in an army than standard Heavy Bolter armed versions.

I think this keeps arms creep down to a minimum, allows for use in smaller games still (albeit at a slight premium ala Warhound vs Warhound packs), and if attempted to spam (especially Typhoon singletons) you're going to be in a no-win points sink I expect (and if you can make that one work, you're a better man than I).

The question I had in your post is if you were intending that Typhoons in a flight of two are free and you pay a premium for flight of one upgrade?

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:07 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Let's mash up our ideas into the following (most of yours I'm down to get jiggy with :D )
How about=>

Storm Talon Gunship
Aircraft Fighter 5+ n/a n/a

Twin Assault Cannon - - - - - 15cm - - - AP4+/AT4+/AA5+ . . . . Forward Arc
Twin Heavy Bolter - - - - - - - 15cm - - - AP4+/AA5+
OR Typhoon Missile Launcher - - 30cm - - - AP4+/AT5+ . . . . . . . . Forward Arc

Note:-
May be armed with either Heavy Bolters OR Typhoon missile launcher Pod not both.


1 for 125, 2 for 200. One Storm Talon per formation may be upgraded to a Typhoon pod for +25 points. You may not have more Typhoon armed Storm Talons in an army than standard Heavy Bolter armed versions.


Ref the Storm Talon:
I like these stats, but I can't see any reason to limit the upgrading to typhoon pods, they don't look like a game breaker - its not like they're throwing around deathstrike missiles...
If its more effective, then keep the points cost but limiting seems unnecessary IMHO.

Also is there a specific reason to include singletons as an option? Generally the only single unit formations are WE. Typically, in both Epic and real life, military units will operate in pairs or greater for mutual support, on this basis I would suggest the minimum size be two for this formation. Game wise, a single unit, non WE formation seems fiddly, next they're will be single vehicle tank hunters, snipers or recce units.

The rest of the list is looking good, but I'd still recommend slotting the restricted formations down the bottom with the allies in the army list.

The Clan wording needs to define if each of the 1-2 mandatory upgrades can be taken more than once?

Still yet to try "flesh is weak" special rule so I can't comment on changes.

I see you've made the recon tacticals a separate unit type - I guess thats solved the problem with garrisoning. Aspirants could possible stay as "scouts" though to reduce new unit count. No sniper upgrade?

Additionally, there are a significant number of unit types now in the restricted section. I know we discussed the list needed focus but this may be too limiting at the moment. Perhaps assault or bike formations could drop back to the unrestricted sections?

Finally, its good to see the Capitol Imperialis in there for fun. Two other options I though about since my last post would be to add the lascannon/plasma gun razorback as an option (as some of the newer fluff suggests this variant was an Iron hands invention). The other thought was that as older fluff had the iron hands as Siege/Hvy weapon specialists (and in NetEpic they could even take limited numbers of bombards.) that we could consider a 0-1 formation of either 4x Bombards or 4x Medusa (named after Iron Hands home world perhaps) in the list?

Still moving & on holidays so play testing is still a while off.
Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:58 pm 
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ortron wrote:
Ref the Storm Talon:
I like these stats, but I can't see any reason to limit the upgrading to typhoon pods, they don't look like a game breaker - its not like they're throwing around deathstrike missiles...
If its more effective, then keep the points cost but limiting seems unnecessary IMHO.

It was an attempt to sidestep what I personally feel is a hot button topic that discussing the ST causes on the boards. Just go see the official ST Dev thread (all 20 pages) to see what I mean :D. As it stands, many people I expect are unhappy with those stats despite them being almost inline to the TBolt effectiveness with Multilasr + Storm Bolters + Rockets vs Assault Cannon + Twin Heavy Bolters only (with an additional restricted upgrade and cost as an option if you can afford it). When considered that their cost is quite a bit more than a TBolt (relative to airpower costing) I thought it was a pretty good balance but it might need some a bump in price (especially considering that as an actual Marine fighter it comes with ATSKNF which makes for a pretty resilient fighter).

ortron wrote:
Also is there a specific reason to include singletons as an option? Generally the only single unit formations are WE. Typically, in both Epic and real life, military units will operate in pairs or greater for mutual support, on this basis I would suggest the minimum size be two for this formation. Game wise, a single unit, non WE formation seems fiddly, next they're will be single vehicle tank hunters, snipers or recce units.

Considering the above, I'm going to suggest we put it at 2 and call ti a day. Like I said, this is really the first marine fighter so there's some additional factors in balancing it to consider.

ortron wrote:
The rest of the list is looking good, but I'd still recommend slotting the restricted formations down the bottom with the allies in the army list.

Can collapse into a single section, no problem.

ortron wrote:
The Clan wording needs to define if each of the 1-2 mandatory upgrades can be taken more than once?

Sure thing. How about
Quote:
4 Tactical units with 1 Commander plus transport, plus 1 or 2 of the following options (in any combination):


ortron wrote:
Still yet to try "flesh is weak" special rule so I can't comment on changes.

Changes were wording structure only, no rule changes. Considering dumping it for a new Bionics special rule instead. Not sure yet...

ortron wrote:
I see you've made the recon tacticals a separate unit type - I guess thats solved the problem with garrisoning. Aspirants could possible stay as "scouts" though to reduce new unit count. No sniper upgrade?

It wouldn't change the unit count as they'd need to be named Iron Hands Scouts instead as they purposely lack infiltrator. Sniper is dropped to counter the fact that this formation can be a garrison monster in play now (put some ven dreds and/or razorbacks with them in deep cover and that "son of a bitch is dug in like an Alabama tick", if I might steal a quote from a classic 80's film :D
Also for no reason other than a gut level feeling, it just doesn't seem very IH-sy to me to stand off and snipe [shurgs]

ortron wrote:
Additionally, there are a significant number of unit types now in the restricted section. I know we discussed the list needed focus but this may be too limiting at the moment. Perhaps assault or bike formations could drop back to the unrestricted sections?

Let's keep an eye on this but for now let's get some more playtest in to see if we need to relax this. This is pretty close to the Sallies list restrictions and it plays fairly well (though that Assault Ram is pure gold and counters much of the limitations, admittedly)

ortron wrote:
Finally, its good to see the Capitol Imperialis in there for fun.

Yeah it's silly but entertaining. I'd actually like to see that bad boy get stat'd for reals and put into the Inquisition lists.

ortron wrote:
Two other options I though about since my last post would be to add the lascannon/plasma gun razorback as an option (as some of the newer fluff suggests this variant was an Iron hands invention).

Interesting. Didn't see any of that. Got a reference? I'd shy away from Plasma for a couple of reasons.
1. Slow firing is still the order of the day on plasma and this army must get into FF range ASAP to be viable. Anything getting into the way of that is probably not going to be effective in this list. Of course that's me arm chair designing and not proving via playtest. :D
2. Good bad or not, Plasma is slightly more the domain of DA in general perception (albeit on some out of date fluff- but there's that whole emotional reaction thing).
I had mentally flirted around with Meltas and Multimeltas as an INF and Razorback option as they fit the general Engage style play of this list and actually if we go into the super WAY back machine, IH were somewhat known for taking those weapons in 40k. Of course this was 2nd edition and old outdated fluff and long before the rise of the Sallies and their heat weaponry flavor that they are now known for. Again this is a case of the Red Headed Step-child the IH are currently. Perhaps the Assault Cannon variation is better suited? This list already is AP poor and that'd very likely be the fix. I'd prefer adding a non-codex list Rhino based vehicle than one on the Land Raider chassis.

ortron wrote:
The other thought was that as older fluff had the iron hands as Siege/Hvy weapon specialists (and in NetEpic they could even take limited numbers of bombards.) that we could consider a 0-1 formation of either 4x Bombards or 4x Medusa (named after Iron Hands home world perhaps) in the list?

Interesting. I missed that but admittedly back then I was all up in the BA to a fault so easy to miss. The Heavy Weapon specialists do have the appropriate feel for these Cads though. I'd hesitate a bit on the siege style as we've got two excellent Siege lists already that the IH actually fit rather well into. Let's brainstorm some more on this tip.


ortron wrote:
Still moving & on holidays so play testing is still a while off.
Cheers


Might have to hit you up for a few internet games over cyberboard or vassal.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Version 4.6 uploaded in OP
Changes:

-Mobile Fortress moved into Core as 0-1 option. Going to try and balance this because, well, I'm stupid probably :D Points increased +25
-Mobile Fortress subtitled "Capital Imperialis Medusa Pattern" in attempt to help prod play testing for this sorely missing beast
-Add Bionics special rule/upgrade from discussion but performed as upgrade. Allows fallback 6+ save re-roll after RA but before IS, if any.
-Storm Talons now as formation of 2 ONLY.
-Storm Talons +25 points
-Tacticals Reverted to bog standard Missile Launcher.
-Devestators have option to focus fire as a single Twin-Lascannon shot or as two Individual Lascannons
-Typo: Storm Talons should have reduced 30cm range on typhoon pods to make Dobsy happy plus play testing showed some need to pull them back =D
-Filled out all missing units from Codex list
-Cult of the Machine rule clarified regarding loss of Dreads from Iron Hands army only, not allied dreads. ANY Allied titan however still lays BM when lost.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Focus For Current Round of Play testing:

-Need more play testing against pest armies, especially orks which local group lacks experience with.
-Interested in AMTL head to head and Chaos-y lists (Traitor Legions and Daemons- I look at your Demon World with IS unit galore).

Opposing Eldar and IG lists are feeling pretty good. Eldar good at outmanuvering (as they should) and guard, especially DKoK, are good at overrunning.

Food for thought:
-AC or Plasma equipped Razorback? (+50 points each - limit 1 per formation? No more than 50%?)

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Hey Jimmy, sorry it took so long but I finally got around to reading the updated list.

I'm Loving the mobile fortress. Now I just have to figure out how to build one... Rules wise, any chance units will be able to fight from it like the Leviathan and Stormlord in the Cadian list?


Special rule - bionics, not sure the additional die roll is needed given its potentially 4-5 rolls to complete one "save" per hit. May I suggest an armour upgrade or just add invulnerable or perhaps as another option:
Bionics: units with this rule change their save by -1 but gain reinforced armour. Units with reinforced armour already may not take this option.
(typical marine then becomes 5+ RA, not 4+. which overall i think is 6% better versus standard hits but with a chance to survive MW hits, however no save against TK weapons like they would have with invul save.
Each option has its pros and cons - I'd just like to remove the extra dice to then reroll.

Glad the ML has come back to standard marines.

You need to fix the wording on the storm talons in army list - you've fixed unit price, now just remove the "1 or 2" as it suggest singletons are still an option. Still don't see the need to limit the typhoon ML but minor point.

Unsure why the Devs would ever want to combine to a single AT4+ shot. stats wise the 2 at 5+ are always better or equal (i think, brain is struggling tonight though):
Avg hits
Normal shooting: Focus (0.5) Normal (0.66)
Double shooting: Focus (0.33) Normal (0.33)
Sustained shooting: Focus (0.66) Normal (1.0)
Double into cover: Focus (0.17) Normal (0.16)
Perhaps I'm missing something?

as for TL AC or plasma razor backs, the Lascannon & TL plasma gun variant is likely to be a iron hands invention as Page 77 of Codex Space Marines states:

"The oldest patter on Razorback is the Mark 1 or "Stronos" - a dedicated heavy infantry slayer that combines the firepower of twin-linked plasma guns and a single lascannon. Details of the dire events that married so powerful and armament to so lightly armored a vehicle can now only be speculated upon, as all records from that time have been lost or sealed..."

In another section it quotes Kardan Stronos, Chapter Master of the Iron Hands as saying:

" I belive in three tenets of battle - firepower, firepower and more firepower. Should the Omnissiah have wished otherwise, he would not have provided me with such a mighty tool as the Razorback. I long for the day in which my entire Chapter can ride to war in transports such as these. vehicles whose rage can be given voice through their sanctified armament"

anyhow, the old razor back might be interesting to try as an option?

Hope this helps, not sure how long it will be till I can add a batrep as I'm trying to help with thousand sons list at the moment.

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Thanks Orton.

Yeah I've played two games under the bionics. Additional rolling was annoying, in the extreme, which was a fear I had. It was somewhat balanced due to the fact that the number of formations taking it is pretty self limiting.

I like the simplicity of the approach of adding RA to formations that take it and had cogitated on that approach for a while. However the units that most likely would have significant augmentation it are those units that already have RA in their statline to begin with: Termies, Council or leaders with their IS. That seems a bit wonky and backwards. Maybe up the cost and give +1 to armour save rolls (IIRC this is similar to how Death Guard marines work - another similarity between the lists) is a better approach. Same rolling amount and fits the surly gits fluff.

Discovered some more fluff buried in some old files about their propensity for fielding Rapiers.
Quote:
Those Chapters which descend from the Imperial Fists and Iron Hands Legions are especially known users of Rapiers, and have even employed them for boarding assaults.
- Warhammer 40,000: Wargear (2nd Edition), p. 5


This could be a nice addition. I should note the new Rapier variant on FW is modeled in Iron Hands figures :) Irrespective of anyone's like or dislike of FW/Horus Heresy stuff, it's nice to see the Iron Hands being remembered.

ortron wrote:
as for TL AC or plasma razor backs, the Lascannon & TL plasma gun variant is likely to be a iron hands invention as Page 77 of Codex Space Marines states:

"The oldest patter on Razorback is the Mark 1 or "Stronos" - a dedicated heavy infantry slayer that combines the firepower of twin-linked plasma guns and a single lascannon. Details of the dire events that married so powerful and armament to so lightly armored a vehicle can now only be speculated upon, as all records from that time have been lost or sealed..."

In another section it quotes Kardan Stronos, Chapter Master of the Iron Hands as saying:

" I belive in three tenets of battle - firepower, firepower and more firepower. Should the Omnissiah have wished otherwise, he would not have provided me with such a mighty tool as the Razorback. I long for the day in which my entire Chapter can ride to war in transports such as these. vehicles whose rage can be given voice through their sanctified armament"

anyhow, the old razor back might be interesting to try as an option?


LOVE IT. Nothing like backing list development with fluff. Thinking this is a replacement for the lascannon variant? Might lead us to bonus Razorback upgrades and balance with further armour restrictions (predators) in the list.

0.4.6-b variant in OP.
-Corrected Storm Talon at 2 per formation
-Trying out Stronus pattern razorback
-Land Raider upgrade limited to 1 Phobos
-Cap Imp + 50 points (clarified that INF can Shoot/FF when embarked)
-Devestators can take plasma guns (short range AP)
-Rejiggered Bionics to give armour bonus (ala DG)

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:24 pm 
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Question brought before the Synod that they may render judgment:

IF, and that's a huge IF, we were to propose introduction of the Rapier Carriage to the list where would we price / stat them.

First for reference the closest existing weapon is the Thunderfire battery from the Imperial Fist list
Thunderfire Battery 4 Thunderfire Cannons 250 points
Thunderfire Cannon INF 10cm 5+ 6+ 5+ Thunderfire Cannon 60cm 2xAP4+/AT6+, Disrupt OR Ignore Cover

There's a Rapier Laser destroyer from the Siegmasters list
Rapier Platoon Add 3 Rapier Laser Destroyer units +75 points
Rapier Laser Destroyer INF 10cm - - 5+ Rapier Laser Destroyer 45cm AP6+/AT4+

However this doesn't quite feel right under an astartes list. The lack of FF and armour save doesn't quite jive. Frankly the Marines are hardier bunch than some Baran conscripts :)
Do we leave this discussion or present an alternate version while keeping the weapon itself going with the same shooting?

Perhaps=>
Rapier Platoon Add 3 Rapier Laser Destroyer units +100 points
Rapier Laser Destroyer INF 10cm 5+ N/A 5+ Rapier Laser Destroyer 45cm AP6+/AT4+

Another option is to go with the Graviton version but I haven't seen stats for it [looks at Black Legion :)]

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:50 pm 
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Hi, nice to see the Iron Hands get some love :)

I will playtest the army as soon as I have done some modifications to my current IH army to fit this list. (played them as a vanilla SM up until now) Until then I have some comments on the list. Don't take them too hard, I think on the whole the list is good :)

I think the alternate list looks better so that is what I've read.

General opinions:
Why are there so many special rules and stats? To me this looks more like an separate army list not a chapter list. You catch the "Iron Hands feeling" perfectly well with the different formations (Clans) etc. No need to have that many special units in my opinion.

In the beginning it states that this army will provide reasons to take dreadnoughts. I'm a big dread fan, and usually fields them in my army even if the are not the best option so that sounded really nice :) but when I look at the list I don't really see any more reason to take the dreads than in a regular army. What am I missing?

I'm not that good at Iron Hands fluff but read some but can't figure out why they need SM aircraft. It would be nice with some Storm talons but right now the Space marine army list need to borrow thunderbolts but Iron Hands don't, that's a little strange...

Now to some more specific opinions:
Really like the Clan formations, nice feel with a mixture of units :)

I would move the Restricted formations to the end of the list, like someone said before in this thread. Core - Detachment - Restricted - Upgrades.

Light Recon - They feel really expensive. Not sure why I would like to take them in any army... Without Infiltrate the are not that good at attacking and at this size and points they are an expensive screen. Also it feels very unnecessary to have both recon tactical and aspirants. Not much difference between the two. Like the IH feel of the recon tactical. I would cut the two aspirants and keep the rest...

Iron Hands Upgrades:
Quote:
(Up to two upgrades may be taken Iron Hands detachment or once per Clan. No upgrade may be taken more than once. The Great Council Retinue does not count towards this total)

This sounds weird. 2 upgrades per detachment and 1 per Clan?

Cult of the Machine: I like the touch but with this rule I will never take any venerable dreadnoughts. The formation its in and probable one or two more gets blast markers when it dies, no thank you ;) Perhaps only extra blastmarker on the formation its in?

Flesh is weak: sounds fun, perhaps extend it to be used when they are assaulted as well?

Bionics: No fan of this rule. I would very much like some bionics but this will make them too good. Veterans will have 3+ reinforced save. Probably the best save in the game? How about giving them Thick rear armour instead, not in the same league but with the same feel? Or making the characters have reinforced armour instead of invulnerable saves. (captain, Librarian and chaplain)

Iron father looks very much like the Chaplain ;)

IH Devastator, please change them back to 2xAT5+ simpler and with the right feel.

Aspirant squad no need to have them in the list in my opinion that is ;)

Dreadnought please make two separate rows, one for the Hellfire and one for the Tactical. Never figured out why the predators gets two rows but not the dreads :(

Predator Annihilator twin lascannon is stated as AT6+ typo? (should be AT4+?)

Razorbacks, do we need the heavy bolter option? The plasma/lascannon feels a much more viable option.

The mobile fortress looks really fun! Not sure its worth the 900 points but I will start building one anyhow :)

This became a long rant, sorry. On the whole I give the list a big thumbs up!!! (just needs some tweaking)

Also my sentimental side wants the bombards back in the list... (I will be fielding mine as Whirlwind proxies until then)

Regards Uven


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:23 pm 
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uvenlord wrote:
Hi, nice to see the Iron Hands get some love :)

Yes my feelings too (even if my marines are painted as Bullheaded dudes). It's even better to see the list get some love from you all! Thanks for the interest!

This will be a long reply. Get coffee. heh

uvenlord wrote:
I will playtest the army as soon as I have done some modifications to my current IH army to fit this list. (played them as a vanilla SM up until now) Until then I have some comments on the list. Don't take them too hard, I think on the whole the list is good

No go hard on it. We want quality lists for people to play with! However the gentle way you put it is of course appreciated

uvenlord wrote:
I think the alternate list looks better so that is what I've read.

My personal preference as well. Wanted to get some general feedback on the variations.

uvenlord wrote:
Why are there so many special rules and stats? To me this looks more like an separate army list not a chapter list. You catch the "Iron Hands feeling" perfectly well with the different formations (Clans) etc. No need to have that many special units in my opinion.

Three parts for this answer.

1. We're looking at 2 of the 3 special rules to make it into the developmental list version. We're trying out bionics to see if it fits. Realistically the difficulties in modeling this with the E:A abstraction means we're learning more towards Cult of the Machine and Flesh is Weak vs Bionics right now. If you have ideas in this area I'd love to get them out for discussion, no matter how radical they are. Go crazy. That's why we're in Experimental status right now.

2. There's only 3 special versions of an established unit. Razorback, Devastator, and Venerable Dreadnought. That's a number that is pretty much in line with most variant lists (Salamanders, Scion of Iron, etc). Perhaps you are referring instead to some of the unique units, some of which I think can get dropped/collapsed (See aspriant below). Others are renamed units to fit the fluff (Vet Officiers == Terminators, Iron Father == Chaplin)

3. "separate army list not a chapter list" as in not Marines but a new faction? I want to make sure that's the underlying connotation here.. Yes it has (or should have :) ) the Astartes feel but the Iron Hands are actually one of the most non-codex chapters out there, only eclipsed by the Space Wolves. Naturally this is going to be one of the more radical departures from the Codex list. I want to make sure I address and discuss this specifically as this sounds like a good conversation to have. Let's start a distinct entry so you can explain in a little more detail on this topic from the rest of this reply and the inevitable retort I encourage you to make :)

uvenlord wrote:
In the beginning it states that this army will provide reasons to take dreadnoughts. I'm a big dread fan, and usually fields them in my army even if the are not the best option so that sounded really nice but when I look at the list I don't really see any more reason to take the dreads than in a regular army. What am I missing?

Basically the way this list is built up it naturally leads towards deploying as a Drop Pod assault force. The formations tend to be mixed arms and usually they fare worse than more dedicated style of formations (The lack of Land Raiders outside of schleping Terminators for instance). Couple that with the Inspiring ability on the Dreds (why they are IH Venerable Dred vs just Venerable Dred in the unit list) and then invoke FiW makes them an assault nightmare to deal with-Even if you win, you're likely going to have to deal with them next turn. Dropping two clans, prep with blastmarkers, engaging with one and having the other in position for supporting fire + inspiring is a nasty force to reckon with (especially if you can catch the enemy with a clipping assault). If they've got good cover then trying to shift them is going to a B*** which usually derails an opponents forward momentum as they start responding to the pace of battle you're setting. Now of course when things go wrong with that style they go wrong BIGger than the Codex list.

uvenlord wrote:
I'm not that good at Iron Hands fluff but read some but can't figure out why they need SM aircraft. It would be nice with some Storm talons but right now the Space marine army list need to borrow thunderbolts but Iron Hands don't, that's a little strange...

Basically in the fluff, the Iron Hands refuse to operate with any other force under any circumstances. They have contempt for other Marines and absolutely detest the Imperial Navy and Guard and refuse to fight along side either. If there's a pure Marine list out there, it's going to be this one. A secondary concern was to have a "safety valve" of a list for those that are wanting said pure Astartes list to prevent any discussion of trying to introduce Talons say into the Codex list which if you remember was a topic of much contention last year. Also it allowed somewhere were workable battle tested stats for those interested in them to get hashed out with actual reports instead of the opinion-war that that discussion devolved into. Lastly, I like them :D We're not wedded to having them in the list. There's been discussion of dropping air power and balancing with improved AA options for the list instead to compensate.

uvenlord wrote:
Really like the Clan formations, nice feel with a mixture of units

Thanks. They're unexpectedly fun to play with!

uvenlord wrote:
I would move the Restricted formations to the end of the list, like someone said before in this thread. Core - Detachment - Restricted - Upgrades.

Already done in the next draft. Waiting on a few more bat-reps and input before we publish. I don't want too much churn with entire versions getting published and replaced before anyone even played with them.

uvenlord wrote:
Light Recon - They feel really expensive. Not sure why I would like to take them in any army... Without Infiltrate the are not that good at attacking and at this size and points they are an expensive screen. Also it feels very unnecessary to have both recon tactical and aspirants. Not much difference between the two. Like the IH feel of the recon tactical. I would cut the two aspirants and keep the rest...

They're the least baked formation at the moment. I've been able to pull off wins by pulling some crazy shenanigans with them (they're able to garrison with dreds after all) but I'm thinking that's a proverbial one trick pony. With the newer, well actually older, fluff in the WH30k books they've got recon tactical squads available instead of modern scouts. Are you thinking to push more that way?

uvenlord wrote:
Iron Hands Upgrades:
Quote:
(Up to two upgrades may be taken Iron Hands detachment or once per Clan. No upgrade may be taken more than once. The Great Council Retinue does not count towards this total)

This sounds weird. 2 upgrades per detachment and 1 per Clan?

My attempt to gently lead people to not building lists that are even more hopelessly out activated than the IH already play with. I'm starting to think it's not really needed and would simply fall under cavet emptor myself. Remove and set at 2 or only at 1 for everything?

uvenlord wrote:
Cult of the Machine: I like the touch but with this rule I will never take any venerable dreadnoughts. The formation its in and probable one or two more gets blast markers when it dies, no thank you Perhaps only extra blastmarker on the formation its in?

It's for the afore mentioned drop assault where AT/AP fire is not differentiated and you can soak up hits with infantry if needed. Of course then you lose the Inspiring but you can always take regular dreds instead (or in addition). You're right that 2BM is heavy and perhaps making them suboptimal. How I've played them generally was in that game changing assault that tends to determine the course of the rest of the game so I've not felt that pain. Another idea is to apply that to Titans only.

uvenlord wrote:
Flesh is weak: sounds fun, perhaps extend it to be used when they are assaulted as well?

Interesting. How would we word that? "Must be declared immediately before taking an engage action or when engaged, before activation roll"?

uvenlord wrote:
Bionics: No fan of this rule. I would very much like some bionics but this will make them too good. Veterans will have 3+ reinforced save. Probably the best save in the game? How about giving them Thick rear armour instead, not in the same league but with the same feel? Or making the characters have reinforced armour instead of invulnerable saves. (captain, Librarian and chaplain)

Yeah it's the one most likely to end up cut. Irony is that as an approach it works perfectly to the mechanics of Netepic - Orton's chasing this one up [hint hint hint]

My regular Steel Legion opponent threw out an interesting idea about bionics being an ambient ability negating the additional BM from taking the first loss in crossfire. Another idea for consideration.

uvenlord wrote:
Iron father looks very much like the Chaplain

Irony? :D

uvenlord wrote:
IH Devastator, please change them back to 2xAT5+ simpler and with the right feel.

Was an attempt to provide some AP for them. I got my ass handed to me with a swarm list of Guardians and Guard in a few early test games actually because I couldn't put out enough AP in the game to slow them down! You're thinking Tact with pure AP and devs with pure AT is the way to go?

uvenlord wrote:
Dreadnought please make two separate rows, one for the Hellfire and one for the Tactical. Never figured out why the predators gets two rows but not the dreads :(

I actually agree with what you say regarding this but until the higher ups decide to split the Hellfire and Tactical Dreds in the Codex list I'm going to follow the established format. Otherwise more of the custom units we describe above have to added to account for the differences by convention.

uvenlord wrote:
Predator Annihilator twin lascannon is stated as AT6+ typo? (should be AT4+?)

Completely. Somewhere above I noted the typo in the published list. :{[]

uvenlord wrote:
Razorbacks, do we need the heavy bolter option? The plasma/lascannon feels a much more viable option.

Orton dug up interesting fluff the the IH actually are Razorback junkies. I've been thinking of how we can encourage their use and hopefully the plasma/las option adds flavor. As the Bolter option was in the Codex List (and just about everywhere else) I am curious as to why you feel it's best to remove the option?

uvenlord wrote:
The mobile fortress looks really fun! Not sure its worth the 900 points but I will start building one anyhow :)

Yeah I really just wanted to bring out my old CapImp model from the display case and have a reason to play with it. I figure we'll start high and adjust down if needed. It's been harder to get people to accept price increases then decreases historically.

uvenlord wrote:
This became a long rant, sorry. On the whole I give the list a big thumbs up!!! (just needs some tweaking)

No not at all! This is great information and I'm glad you took time to comment. I've given some insight into the reasoning to many points above. PLEASE poke holes in them! Debate vigorously and with passion!

uvenlord wrote:
Also my sentimental side wants the bombards back in the list... (I will be fielding mine as Whirlwind proxies until then)

>:D

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:51 pm 
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Ok, now the coffeepot is empty :)

Thanks for the quick answer, now for the reply...


Quote:
uvenlord wrote:
Why are there so many special rules and stats? To me this looks more like an separate army list not a chapter list. You catch the "Iron Hands feeling" perfectly well with the different formations (Clans) etc. No need to have that many special units in my opinion.

Three parts for this answer.

1. We're looking at 2 of the 3 special rules to make it into the developmental list version. We're trying out bionics to see if it fits. Realistically the difficulties in modeling this with the E:A abstraction means we're learning more towards Cult of the Machine and Flesh is Weak vs Bionics right now. If you have ideas in this area I'd love to get them out for discussion, no matter how radical they are. Go crazy. That's why we're in Experimental status right now.

2. There's only 3 special versions of an established unit. Razorback, Devastator, and Venerable Dreadnought. That's a number that is pretty much in line with most variant lists (Salamanders, Scion of Iron, etc). Perhaps you are referring instead to some of the unique units, some of which I think can get dropped/collapsed (See aspriant below). Others are renamed units to fit the fluff (Vet Officiers == Terminators, Iron Father == Chaplin)

3. "separate army list not a chapter list" as in not Marines but a new faction? I want to make sure that's the underlying connotation here.. Yes it has (or should have ) the Astartes feel but the Iron Hands are actually one of the most non-codex chapters out there, only eclipsed by the Space Wolves. Naturally this is going to be one of the more radical departures from the Codex list. I want to make sure I address and discuss this specifically as this sounds like a good conversation to have. Let's start a distinct entry so you can explain in a little more detail on this topic from the rest of this reply and the inevitable retort I encourage you to make

1. ok
2. This was my primary "concern" IH got special devastators, dreads, scouts, terminators...Not counting the airplanes they got 7-8 unique units. that's a lot even for the IH :) My suggestion is to make the army special in the way you build the army (like Heavy Infantry, ordinary units special build)
3. ok, will save this one until i done some homework on the internet ;)

Quote:
uvenlord wrote:
In the beginning it states that this army will provide reasons to take dreadnoughts. I'm a big dread fan, and usually fields them in my army even if the are not the best option so that sounded really nice but when I look at the list I don't really see any more reason to take the dreads than in a regular army. What am I missing?

Basically the way this list is built up it naturally leads towards deploying as a Drop Pod assault force. The formations tend to be mixed arms and usually they fare worse than more dedicated style of formations (The lack of Land Raiders outside of schleping Terminators for instance). Couple that with the Inspiring ability on the Dreds (why they are IH Venerable Dred vs just Venerable Dred in the unit list) and then invoke FiW makes them an assault nightmare to deal with-Even if you win, you're likely going to have to deal with them next turn. Dropping two clans, prep with blastmarkers, engaging with one and having the other in position for supporting fire + inspiring is a nasty force to reckon with (especially if you can catch the enemy with a clipping assault). If they've got good cover then trying to shift them is going to a B*** which usually derails an opponents forward momentum as they start responding to the pace of battle you're setting. Now of course when things go wrong with that style they go wrong BIGger than the Codex list.

So by making this a drop pod army you get more dreads...? I follow but I don't like it ;) Why no formations with dreads and SM? or only dreads... ::) "fingers crossed"

Quote:
uvenlord wrote:
Light Recon - They feel really expensive. Not sure why I would like to take them in any army... Without Infiltrate the are not that good at attacking and at this size and points they are an expensive screen. Also it feels very unnecessary to have both recon tactical and aspirants. Not much difference between the two. Like the IH feel of the recon tactical. I would cut the two aspirants and keep the rest...

They're the least baked formation at the moment. I've been able to pull off wins by pulling some crazy shenanigans with them (they're able to garrison with dreds after all) but I'm thinking that's a proverbial one trick pony. With the newer, well actually older, fluff in the WH30k books they've got recon tactical squads available instead of modern scouts. Are you thinking to push more that way?

Not that good at the rules but without rhinos almost anyone can garrison with dreads, right???
My suggestion would be to have 4 "Recon Tacticals" period in the formation. Fluffwise they don't have ordinary scouts but more like the old ways so why not?

Quote:
uvenlord wrote:
Iron Hands Upgrades:
Quote:
(Up to two upgrades may be taken Iron Hands detachment or once per Clan. No upgrade may be taken more than once. The Great Council Retinue does not count towards this total)

This sounds weird. 2 upgrades per detachment and 1 per Clan?

My attempt to gently lead people to not building lists that are even more hopelessly out activated than the IH already play with. I'm starting to think it's not really needed and would simply fall under cavet emptor myself. Remove and set at 2 or only at 1 for everything?

Sorry, it didn't came out right :) I didn't really understand the sentence, but now with your explanation I do. Although I think you set 2 as a standard for everyone. (hmm clan with retinue of 2 venerable and one extra and 2 iron fathers = 5 inspiring :) )

Quote:
uvenlord wrote:
Cult of the Machine: I like the touch but with this rule I will never take any venerable dreadnoughts. The formation its in and probable one or two more gets blast markers when it dies, no thank you Perhaps only extra blastmarker on the formation its in?

It's for the afore mentioned drop assault where AT/AP fire is not differentiated and you can soak up hits with infantry if needed. Of course then you lose the Inspiring but you can always take regular dreds instead (or in addition). You're right that 2BM is heavy and perhaps making them suboptimal. How I've played them generally was in that game changing assault that tends to determine the course of the rest of the game so I've not felt that pain. Another idea is to apply that to Titans only.

not really following you here but I will think of some other wording/use or stay silent...

Quote:
uvenlord wrote:
Flesh is weak: sounds fun, perhaps extend it to be used when they are assaulted as well?

Interesting. How would we word that? "Must be declared immediately before taking an engage action or when engaged, before activation roll"?

"Activate at the beginning of an assault, before counter charges are made" ? (English is not my native tongue as you might have notised ;) )

Quote:
uvenlord wrote:
IH Devastator, please change them back to 2xAT5+ simpler and with the right feel.

Was an attempt to provide some AP for them. I got my ass handed to me with a swarm list of Guardians and Guard in a few early test games actually because I couldn't put out enough AP in the game to slow them down! You're thinking Tact with pure AP and devs with pure AT is the way to go?

Yupp, we all have our weaknesses

Quote:
uvenlord wrote:
Razorbacks, do we need the heavy bolter option? The plasma/lascannon feels a much more viable option.

Orton dug up interesting fluff the the IH actually are Razorback junkies. I've been thinking of how we can encourage their use and hopefully the plasma/las option adds flavor. As the Bolter option was in the Codex List (and just about everywhere else) I am curious as to why you feel it's best to remove the option?

They felt so similar, with the "new" variant being almost always better so that's why. When would you field the H bolter only variant? (also I was on a crusade against all unique and special units :) )

Hopefully they will see some battle next week, how and where do I post battle reports if I'm in a good mood?

Now I will bury my head in some IH lore so I can come up with some good suggestions

EDIT:
After some more armybuilding:
Why only 1 landraider in the Clan veteran officer option. You need 2 to make them mobile...
Only Light Recon can take Razorbacks, is that with intent...
The Landraider is missing some statistics and only transports terminators not veterans :)
Great Council with 2 venerable is only 175p, seems cheap. One venerable cost 100 and supreme commander + one more for 75 makes them a viable choice. (even with Cult of Machine)


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