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White Scars v2012

 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:35 pm 
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You don't move a list down to development. If you want changes approved that you think might be too drastic/meet opposition, post a separate "playtest" document or list of changes. After you've gotten enough playtests, send the ERC a link with the changes and the reps.

As to changes, I think matching the upgrades of Codex would be a start:

Vindicators on Assault
Hunter, Land Raiders and Vindicators on Tactical
Hunter and Vindicators on Terminator

Any more I might of missed?

Then, maybe a Vindicator formation.

A separate Scout Bike formation would be fun, as would Tempest, but I think those would need some playtests for approval.

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:26 pm 
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The current epic WS list reflects their nature and background really badly, probably the worst out of any epic list. Though the core WS bikers gain walker (reflecting their skilled riders) the unit size goes up to 8, making them much harder/slower to retreat than regular SM bikers and the army as a whole slower to react (due to lower numbers of formations than normal) when the opposite should be the case.

The White Scars background is that they are “masters of the lightning strike and hit-and-run attack”. Their core tactics place “enormous importance on speed -- on being the first into combat, on being the first out, on movement, on shams and counterfeits.” Their "Chogorian instructors drilled into them "Withdraw, then return" over and over again.” Speed and feigned flight were also tactics used by real world Mongolians too. A simple, good, way to represent this in the list would be to have the core biker formation 4 strong, rather than 8. There would be greater numbers of small, light units, fleeing and rallying more often and making use of higher activation numbers and crossfire to kill the enemy.

I've thrown together and attached my own more radical take on an army list for the WS, better reflecting the old background, the newer information on them from the WS HH books and the fast, light style of the army. It should play more differently to other lists and the existing list. Have a look over it and let me know if you'd like to see a list like this developed? I'd be happy to champion it if people were interested and would help. I would develop this 'White Scars Great Hunt' (a thing from the WS background where they go off on a crusade to hunt a particular enemy leader they have a grudge against) separate and parallel to the existing WS list.
Attachment:
White Scars Great Hunt Army List.xls [12.5 KiB]
Downloaded 301 times

Attachment:
White Scars Reference.xls [20.5 KiB]
Downloaded 236 times

Notes:
List focussed more on the core WS units of bikes, attack bikes and Land Speeders.
LS Tempests, Scout Bikers and Stormtalons added as they fit the theme and are known to be used extensively by the WS.
Land Raiders ditched – they're just too slow for the theme. If you really want to use some just run the army as a Codex army that game.
Terminators – 0-1 formation, must either fly in on a Thunderhawk OR if teleported in must have an otherwise empty Thunderhawk, to allow them to be quickly redeployed. (WS do teleport - In HH: Scars Primarch Khan and his Terminator bodyguard teleport down onto a just finished Gargant, in advance of the rest of their army, and kill it's Warlord / command crew just as the first wave of WS get there).
Faster WS Spacecraft – WS spacecraft are extensively modified from the SM norm to emphasise speed and manoeuvrability. WS spacecraft are designed with notably less weaponry and transport capacity in order to achieve this.
WS Predators – as per the older background White Scars normally field Predators without sponsons to save on weight. This makes them rubbish, but cheap.
WS Vindicators – a stripped down faster version is in. WS background talks about them leaving things off their vehicles so that they travel faster and it makes a lot of sense for them to leave the dozer blades off, making them 30cm move with no walker.
The WS already have a unique WS transport special rule, which I'd modify to:
A White Scars army can choose to use Drop Pods, but it if does then the entire army must deploy by Drop Pods or aircraft and nothing at all can start on the table.
In addition White Scars Terminators must EITHER be flown in on a Thunderhawk/Landing Craft OR if they teleport in the army must also include a Thunderhawk/Landing Craft which must start the game with sufficient space to transport and redeploy the Terminators.

Any interest? Comments?


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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:43 pm 
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Dave wrote:
You don't move a list down to development. If you want changes approved that you think might be too drastic/meet opposition, post a separate "playtest" document or list of changes. After you've gotten enough playtests, send the ERC a link with the changes and the reps.

As to changes, I think matching the upgrades of Codex would be a start:

Vindicators on Assault
Hunter, Land Raiders and Vindicators on Tactical
Hunter and Vindicators on Terminator

Any more I might of missed?

Then, maybe a Vindicator formation.

A separate Scout Bike formation would be fun, as would Tempest, but I think those would need some playtests for approval.


vindicators on assaults maybe, but I'd leave them as upgrades only, White Scars are reknowned for making scant use of battle tanks

I like the mounted terminators, especially with the 50 point discout, they work really well in a landing craft ;)

I think the rest of the list works well, I'd be happy with stormtalons replacing thunderbolts

maybe add a special rule to represent their hit and run tactics along the lines of eldar.... maybe they get a bigger consolidate, or can still support fire after marching?

not sure I'm a fan of having loads of small bike formations everywhere, they're just ineffective, easily broken and don't work from a gameplay POV unless you have supporting formations around, and that way you may as well just beef the size of the bike formations in the first place....

maybe the list doesn't represent current GW fluff very well, but I don't think the GW fluff translates to an effective force in epic personally....

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:46 pm 
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Hunters for sure
No vindicators
600 pt terminators
and this "maybe add a special rule to represent their hit and run tactics along the lines of eldar.... maybe they get a bigger consolidate, or can still support fire after marching".

While the White Scars are known for prevalent use of Talons, I'd leave them out here as a bit too far.

GlynG, there's always room for an alternate . Cheers for trying something different. I'd play it for hoots even if it was a fan list.

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:02 pm 
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Quote:
"maybe add a special rule to represent their hit and run tactics along the lines of eldar.... maybe they get a bigger consolidate, or can still support fire after marching".




I'd limit this sort of rule to just the Bike formations, gives them a boost and focus' the list more on bikes.


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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:06 pm 
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Oh good point. That's what I was thinking of them n my head when I read that

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:50 pm 
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yeah that's what I meant too, bikes only!

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:49 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
maybe the list doesn't represent current GW fluff very well, but I don't think the GW fluff translates to an effective force in epic personally...not sure I'm a fan of having loads of small bike formations everywhere, they're just ineffective, easily broken and don't work from a gameplay POV unless you have supporting formations around, and that way you may as well just beef the size of the bike formations in the first place....

A single small biker formation would be less effective, but not necessarily on the level of an army. The sort of WS list I've proposed would intentionally be a multiple small units / high activation army. I disagree that it wouldn't work from a gameplay perspective – such armies can work e.g. I've seen Ginger use high activation Eldar armies. It is a different style of army and game, but such is appropriate to the background and allows a quite different list style and game from the codex or existing lists.
Quote:
"maybe add a special rule to represent their hit and run tactics along the lines of eldar.... maybe they get a bigger consolidate, or can still support fire after marching".

I'd limit this sort of rule to just the Bike formations, gives them a boost and focus' the list more on bikes.

A special rule along the line of hit and run wouldn't be appropriate as that rewards a successful Eldar assault by allowing to then better reposition. The core WS tactic advocates quick withdrawal from combat to fight again later. Why a special rule in the first place?... The core EpicA break and withdraw rules cover this on an army level excellently if they just have a slightly smaller formation size of 4. No need for a special rule and best to KIS!

I am a bit unsure on the price of the core formation, but 175 for 4 bikes and/or attack bikes with walker could be more appropriate and make the formation more useful. It'd be cheap for what you get, but the list is very lacking in shooting or heavier stuff.

jimmyzimms wrote:
While the White Scars are known for prevalent use of Talons, I'd leave them out here as a bit too far.

I'd want them in the list personally. WS are noted for being fast and headstrong and attacking quickly without coordinating with other arms of the Imperium. It seems particularly appropriate for the list to field their own fighter aircraft rather than rely on allied ones and the 40k background supports this, saying the WSs use Stormtalons commonly in place of main battle tanks.

My thrown together list suggested less than normal Vindicators (0-1 as an attached upgrade and 0-1 as a separate formation) and uses a modified version without dozer blades making them speed 30cm. I probably should have left the upgrade off the Tacticals, but thought a smaller few of them might be ok but I could drop the separate formation entirely.

I don't have anything against mounted Terminators per se, I just don't think they have any place in a WS list, which to my mind should focus on light, fast warriors, where everything can move 30+cm. A unit of Terminators in Land Raiders is a large, tough formation not really common enough in this list style to be included.


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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:50 am 
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bear in mind though, the 'break and withdraw' doesn't factor in hackdowns, there is also no guarantee of rallying.... so you run the risk of losing the formation by sending in a unit of 4, losing the combat and either dying to hackdowns or failing to rally.... also after rallying, the even smaller bike formations will be piss easy to break and essentially useless for anything except objective nabbing

I get what you're saying but the random nature of assault resolution means you can't reliably engage with the safety net of being able to withdraw if you lose

I'd be keen to see some playtests of your list however, but I just can't see it representing hit and run in that manner

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:24 pm 
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Guys, are we talking about the existing White Scars list here or the Great Hunt one from GlynG?
I'd take the latter off into it's own thread. It's a neat idea and worth discussion (I think GlynG might be onto something though I'm with Kyuss on the special rules bit) but this needs to be focused on the list in the OP. Rebuilding this list from the ground up isn't in the cards

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:01 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
this needs to be focused on the list in the OP. Rebuilding this list from the ground up isn't in the cards


^^this

we've already got enough problems with getting lists tested and approved as it is.... let's not start dismantling ones that are already approved!!

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:50 pm 
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Is this list based on the GW one?

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:19 pm 
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I'm pretty sure they're the same list, give or take....

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:42 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
maybe the list doesn't represent current GW fluff very well, but I don't think the GW fluff translates to an effective force in epic personally...not sure I'm a fan of having loads of small bike formations everywhere, they're just ineffective, easily broken and don't work from a gameplay POV unless you have supporting formations around, and that way you may as well just beef the size of the bike formations in the first place....

A single small biker formation would be less effective, but not necessarily on the level of an army. The sort of WS list I've proposed would intentionally be a multiple small units / high activation army. I disagree that it wouldn't work from a gameplay perspective – such armies can work e.g. I've seen Ginger use high activation Eldar armies. It is a different style of army and game, but such is appropriate to the background and allows a quite different list style and game from the codex or existing lists.
Quote:
"maybe add a special rule to represent their hit and run tactics along the lines of eldar.... maybe they get a bigger consolidate, or can still support fire after marching".

I'd limit this sort of rule to just the Bike formations, gives them a boost and focus' the list more on bikes.

A special rule along the line of hit and run wouldn't be appropriate as that rewards a successful Eldar assault by allowing to then better reposition. The core WS tactic advocates quick withdrawal from combat to fight again later. Why a special rule in the first place?... The core EpicA break and withdraw rules cover this on an army level excellently if they just have a slightly smaller formation size of 4. No need for a special rule and best to KIS!

I am a bit unsure on the price of the core formation, but 175 for 4 bikes and/or attack bikes with walker could be more appropriate and make the formation more useful. It'd be cheap for what you get, but the list is very lacking in shooting or heavier stuff.

jimmyzimms wrote:
While the White Scars are known for prevalent use of Talons, I'd leave them out here as a bit too far.

I'd want them in the list personally. WS are noted for being fast and headstrong and attacking quickly without coordinating with other arms of the Imperium. It seems particularly appropriate for the list to field their own fighter aircraft rather than rely on allied ones and the 40k background supports this, saying the WSs use Stormtalons commonly in place of main battle tanks.

My thrown together list suggested less than normal Vindicators (0-1 as an attached upgrade and 0-1 as a separate formation) and uses a modified version without dozer blades making them speed 30cm. I probably should have left the upgrade off the Tacticals, but thought a smaller few of them might be ok but I could drop the separate formation entirely.

I don't have anything against mounted Terminators per se, I just don't think they have any place in a WS list, which to my mind should focus on light, fast warriors, where everything can move 30+cm. A unit of Terminators in Land Raiders is a large, tough formation not really common enough in this list style to be included.

Gingers popcorn elder list works well but it is a very defensive list - multiple defensive supporting layers then counterattacking if you overreach against it. Not very WS-ish. This tends to be how popcorn armies operate. I'm not sure popcorn with ATSKNF would be that fun to play against.


0-1 restrictions aren't generally considered a good idea with them not scaling

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars v2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:46 am 
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Hmm, the 'popcorn' lists I have put together are intended to use the overlapping activations to set up multiple threats and the Farseer 'commanders' to combine several formations in single attacks as appropriate. Indeed, I have used a Shining Spears formation with the SC to command two other jetbike formations to take down an undamaged enemy Reaver. The whole principle relies on these attacks destroying their targets thus maintaining the activation advantage and this is quite difficult to achieve in practice.There was a similar discussion around the "Marine Scout" list that used a Warlord supported by large numbers of Marine Scouts (some with 'captains') to work in a similar way.

A WS list with lots of small bike formations could also work in a similar way, and while the lack of Reaver and Warlord titans may make this particular strategy challenging, it is by no means impossible. And the Eldar consolidate move is nice for supporting the next assault, but is not essential to the strategy - the 35cm bike move is actually more usefull.


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