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Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?

 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:48 pm 
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We've got stats in the Iron Hands list for this that are starting to feel pretty good (only got 4, 3-4k games with them under our belt but feel good so far). I'd love to get some general parity for this between lists that use it. Our variation is

Storm Talon Gunship
Aircraft Fighter 5+ n/a n/a

Twin Assault Cannon
15cm AP4+/AT4+/AA5+ Forward Arc

Typhoon Missile Launcher
45cm AP4+/AT5+ Forward Arc
OR
Twin Heavy Bolter
15cm AP4+/AA5+ FFx

Notes: May be armed with either Typhoon Pod OR Heavy bolters, not both.

100 points each
In a flight of 2, one may be upgraded to Typhoon pods for +25 points

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Ok, so I am allowed to take 10x separate Storm Talon fighters for 1000 points . . . TLC would be drooling at the prospect. ;D

Seriously I would check out the effects of spamming the ST; even at 200 points a pair this brings back the shades of the Tau '5 aces', especially with a 45cm ground attack that can sit outside most AA and still pick off enemy formations. Even if that is only a single shot, repeated attacks are likely to have a desired effect purely through laying BMs.

Also, I am still unsure about the stats. I thought the intended role was as an "air superiority" fighter (though perhaps GW and the forums have revised the intended role again when I wasn't looking :) ).


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Ok, so I am allowed to take 10x separate Storm Talon fighters for 1000 points . . . TLC would be drooling at the prospect. ;D

Seriously I would check out the effects of spamming the ST; even at 200 points a pair this brings back the shades of the Tau '5 aces', especially with a 45cm ground attack that can sit outside most AA and still pick off enemy formations. Even if that is only a single shot, repeated attacks are likely to have a desired effect purely through laying BMs.


Ha ha! Yeah there's potential for general beardiness if those stats were taken verbatim. Remember now, that's what's in the Iron Hands list, not suggestions for general use. In that list there's plenty of army wide restrictions that prevent that sort of deal but in a more general list that could be a problem. I should clarify that the Typhoon option really is there to balance the IH total lack of INF AP flexibility (tacs are 100% AP/Devs are AT only so they suffer inflexibility against swarm armies by design). However the pod is only available IN a formation of two
Quote:
In a flight of 2, one may be upgraded to Typhoon pods for +25 points
so that spammy singleton approach is DOA for ground harassment. It would make a good CAP screen but actually that'd be the first thing Marines working on their own without support (ala IH) would realistically do. The more I play with this fighter the more I feel confident that most lists need to stay far away from it. Probably only DA and IH would both from balance and fluff work well with it.

Ginger wrote:
Also, I am still unsure about the stats. I thought the intended role was as an "air superiority" fighter (though perhaps GW and the forums have revised the intended role again when I wasn't looking :) ).


Well if we go into the way back machine here the whole air superiority deal was all of our creation not GW to be fair. This was finally a Marine only flyer that we're trying to shoehorn into a TBolt replacement. Now that the true aerospace flyer is finally on the way (as in GW has publicly acknowledged that the Dark Talon is real) that very likely would be the preferred vehicle in stats review.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:08 am 
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The Dark Talon and Nephilim Fighter seem to be Dark Angels/Ravenwing only aircrafts. The Storm Talon is THE Codex Space Marine non-transport aircraft.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:54 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
We've got stats in the Iron Hands list for this that are starting to feel pretty good (only got 4, 3-4k games with them under our belt but feel good so far). I'd love to get some general parity for this between lists that use it. Our variation is

Storm Talon Gunship
Aircraft Fighter 5+ n/a n/a

Twin Assault Cannon
15cm AP4+/AT4+/AA5+ Forward Arc

Typhoon Missile Launcher
45cm AP4+/AT5+ Forward Arc
OR
Twin Heavy Bolter
15cm AP4+/AA5+ FFx

Notes: May be armed with either Typhoon Pod OR Heavy bolters, not both.

100 points each
In a flight of 2, one may be upgraded to Typhoon pods for +25 points

Those sound ludicrously good. They should be more like 150-200 points. It would be better to KISS and drop the upgradable option for them - many Imperial aircraft have different weapon configurations, but Epic abstracts them into one profile and this should be followed here.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:31 pm 
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The ONLY Imperial Aicraft with abstarcted stats is the Thunderbolt (and to a degree the Thunderhawk because it misses the Lascannons).

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:29 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
The Dark Talon and Nephilim Fighter seem to be Dark Angels/Ravenwing only aircrafts. The Storm Talon is THE Codex Space Marine non-transport aircraft.


Realized I had these flipped. I will doubt the Nephilim Jetfighter will be DA only for any length of time. Even the look of the model is pretty vanilla marines (or maybe it's just in comparison to the massively overdone gothic bits on the Dark Talon :D ).

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:46 am 
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Ginger, as Rules King :) can you please finalise this unit's stats? I'm happy to go with Jimmy's optional config idea here and he seems the only one giving it any actual play testing. I would probably set points cost at 200 for squadron of 2.

Cheers!


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:08 pm 
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Just gonna throw my hat into the ring, as it were; Why exactly are these so expensive? Currently, afaik, Marines taking a formation of 2 Thunderbolts is 175 points, yes? The only way these seem to be an improvement over said Thunderbolts is their easier activation, as I'd assume they would fall under Marine Init 1+, and their better save. They have roughly the same AA capabilities as a Thunderbolt; 2x AA5+ attacks, but even there the Thunderbolt pulls slightly ahead with its multilaser being 30cm in range. And it has underwing rockets for some additional AT. I suppose the better initiative and armor counter the loss in range and AT, but it still seems odd to me that it's that much more expensive. Specially when it's only marines that cost 175 for a pair of Thunderbolts, IG gets two for 150. So yeah, maybe reduce the price to 1 at 100 or a pair at 175, keep them competitive with Thunderbolts? I realize that Iron Hands don't get access to said Thunderbolts but I think the point still stands.

If anything I've said has been said/put out already than my apologies. Still feeling my way around these forums. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:26 pm 
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There's another concern the NetERC needs to make a ruling on:
Does ATSKNF effect activation rolls for BM penalties? I personally would say yes but the AC prices would then be better at 225 IMHO. This is above my pay grade however. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:32 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
There's another concern the NetERC needs to make a ruling on:
Does ATSKNF effect activation rolls for BM penalties? I personally would say yes but the AC prices would then be better at 225 IMHO. This is above my pay grade however. :D


ATSKNF on Thawks/Landing Craft works as normal when they are on the ground (count as a Grounded War Engine with a move of 0cm) but has no effect when they are in the air, each BM adds 1 to the activation roll needed. So i'd say ATSKNF would not effect SM fighters either.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:42 pm 
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Kool. I was wondering just because CAP is a wee bit different than Air assault, that's all.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:26 am 
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Ok, I think I see where you are going Jimmy, lets take the different points in order

Singletons
This is a very bad idea in any case. Singletons are both a significant activation boost and ideal for harassing broken formations or picking off singleton defenders of objectives etc. So my recommendation would be only to have pairs with the option of different weapon loadouts.

45cm range
This is also something to be avoided if at all possible (as I have said on many occasions :)). The point is that it allows a/c to be positioned to hit a target formation containing an AA unit while still being out of range of the AA unit - and laying the BM for shooting can often supress that AA unit during the disengage move thus effectively rendering the AA useless.
I would also recommend paying the upgrade to give both a/c a 30cm shot which is also simpler in game terms.

Following on from the above, I would suggest the points costs should be 175 the pair, or 200 for the upgraded pair (both with 30cm shot). This would make them comparable with IN TBolts because they would get the SM initiative of 1+ rather than 2+ and they are classed as a Fighter rather than a Fighter Bomber.

So my recommended stats would be
Quote:
Storm Talon Fighter
Cost 175 a pair

    Aircraft; Fighter 5+ n/a n/a
    Twin Assault Cannon :- 15cm AP4+/AT4+/AA5+ Forward Arc
    Twin Heavy Bolter :-15cm AP4+/AA5+ FFx

UPGRADE to Storm Talon Gunship
    +25 points: Replace Twin Heavy Bolter with:-

    Typhoon Missile Launcher:- 30cm AP4+/AT5+ Forward Arc

Notes: Storm Talon aircraft may be armed with either Heavy Bolters OR Typhoon Missiles, not both.

As "Fighters", they will provide decent CAP while as "Gunships" they will provide good armour suppression which seems to be the theme that is being expressed. And they will still excel in harassing broken formations etc like TBolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:52 am 
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I'm good with that (actually these are the same as what we're play testing because of the earlier feedback) :)

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Talon. A proper Space Marine Fighter Aircraft?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:46 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Ginger, as Rules King :) can you please finalise this unit's stats? I'm happy to go with Jimmy's optional config idea here and he seems the only one giving it any actual play testing. I would probably set points cost at 200 for squadron of 2.

Cheers!

I can't believe we're seriously considering adopting stats as per jimmyzimms for the Storm Talon. Black Legion loves putting in upgradable options in when he converts epic stats, but the game is more abstracted than that.

No other aircraft in the entire Epic Armageddon game has a weapon upgrade option and that's VERY strong precedent for the Storm Talon not having one either.

There's nothing particularly in the background about there being two distinct roles for them (like with the Predators and their Annihilator and Destructor load-outs) and there's no need for Storm Talons to have a upgradeable option for what's only a secondary weapon in any case. It's unnecessary detail and should be abstracted to one weapon for epic.

There's lots of 40k detail in terms of optional upgrades and weapons:

40k Thunderbolts can carry bombs instead of AT rockets.
40k Lightning can carry bombs or AA rockets.
Ork Fighta-Bommerz have loads of weapon options with AT rokkits and Burnas or Shootaz
40k Phoenix bombers can replace their have a Pulse Laser with twin-linked Bright Lances or Star Cannons
40k Vampire Raiders can reduce their transport capacity a bit to carry a Pulse Laser or Missile Launchers as on the Phoenix.
40k Hell Talons can have Reaper Autocannons instead of

NONE of these minor weapon options have made it into Epic and nor should they.

Even Jimmy himself says he only put in the option Typhoon upgrade to address a weakness in the IH list. Please drop it for regular use.

They're both too busy to play at the moment but I hope to get some playtest games in with the Storm Talon against Onxy and Matt Shadowlord in the not so distant fututre and I'd like to test twin-heavy bolters only, probably otherwise as Jimmy stats, 2 for 200.


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