Hey. I was going to deprive all Legions of ATSKNF completely evenhandedly.

EDIT:

Still eager to hear thoughts on the list.

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If anything, I think that the original ATSKNF would have been stronger in the Marines of the day given they were not watered down by time and genetic degeneration etc.

If you can compensate for the issue of larger groups somehow, that might be better.

I assume the list is to be playable versus modern day Epic armies, but are there to be HH Xenos army lists too?

Personally I'd like to see just the Marines of the HH be a stand alone Epic: Horus Heresy supplement using the modern game and include the Primarchs and Xenos breeds(from the novel series) too.

BTw have you considered sorting out HH pattern minis via bluewerewolves or marine mammals?

My impression is the reverse, if anything - Marines in the modern day seem to be more fanatical, better trained (with the Codex), and have stricter genetic screening processes (though the actual geneseed may have declined in quality). And I've always been under the impression there was more conditioning, to boot.

On the one hand, degradation would make some sense. On the other hand, if they've degraded, their ability to take on Traitor Legions is really, really odd. Especially since there are a lot fewer marines than there once were (one million compared to, if you buy the Heresy-era numbers, at least twice that).

The legions also seemed to rely a lot on weight of numbers in a way that current Marines don't (for better or worse). Legion-era Space Marines seem to almost be churned out, especially compared to modern ones.



I can't really think of a way to make stronger ATSKNF and do that, though. Hence the weaker version - I don't think it'll be that much more powerful with larger formations.

If it helps, put it down to improvements from Codex training.



You assume correctly. Probably no Xenos lists. Anything that was around then hasn't really changed that much, as far as I can tell. And the things that got wiped out back then can usually be proxied quite effectively.



My impression is that most of the xeno races in the novels would work just fine using current lists - what did you have in mind?

I had been intending to produce a supplement, but I wanted to get the list at least somewhat balanced first. Then I figured I'd come up with a bunch of scenarios, work out what to recommend as proxies for the various aliens of the era, and do a grand re-enactment of the Siege of Terra for some pictures.



Hadn't really - what sorts of things would need minis in your view?

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Don't forget a massive loss of knowledge too though.


But I would imagine the traitor legions are also somewhat reduced in number....


Fair enough. I'm just not sure it meant lesser quality though.


Fair enough


I'm not sure the Eldar were so fragmentary back then though, were they? I always assumed the current Biel Tan list was the modern situation for the Eldar - ya know? Dying race and all that.


New lists Shrike was an example of unusual fighting units; as was the xenos that captured and killed the Blood Angels during the first few HH novels (I forget their name). Just something I thought might be nice as an aside to the normal GW army lists etc. <shrug> Plus freedom of mini design.


I figured new MkII and III etc armour marines etc. they do look different. Anyway, twas just an idea

True. But lesser quality's easier to balance.



The Eldar were still screwed over, I think. Slaanesh's birth begins the Great Crusade. They might've been more numerous, but the Empire would definitely be gone. And I doubt they'd be in any position to mount major military operations.



NO! Really?



Shrike? Haven't heard of that one before...

I think you're referring to the Megarachnids with the other bunch. My impression was they were basically Nids, at least in effect.

I'd definitely recommend proxy options, mind you. I just can't think of any of the alien races that wouldn't slot neatly enough into one of the NetEA lists (maybe the Hrud. Maybe).



Might be neat. The thing to keep in mind, though, is GW's odd and frightful policies regarding use of their miniatures - IIRC, you can't mix GW and non-GW minis in a book without them getting rangy, as I understand it. So forumware would be right out. Alternately, I'd have to use ALL forumware, which would push the budget for this project higher than I intended (and the workload, at that).

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The Eldar would have been more fragmentary, if not so focused on 'Paths'. Remember that the Warp Storms that dissipated to allow the Great Crusade were (according to Codex: Eldar 4ed, at least) caused by the nascent form of She Who Thirsts. This would indicate that the end of the warp storms coincided with the birth of Slaanesh, and therefore the creation of the Eye of Terror and The Fall. Eldar would be intensely distrustful of other Craftworlds, fearing the taint of Chaos, and would still be developing the Paths they use today. Overall the form of their armies would be similar, with perhaps a greater emphasis on Guardians or their equivalents

Of course, other GW fluff places The Fall 'millions' of years ago, so make of that what you will.

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First impressions
Brilliant idea, nice physical representations of the larger Heresy-era forces, slightly overlarge number of units.

Morale
I like the Defenders of Humanity rule a great deal – it means that the Space Marines' iconic morale is still present, but is not as overbearing as full-on And They Shall Know No Fear. It's also nice and simple to remember, and will be familiar to most Epic players.

I still wonder if the larger formations will be a bit good, so can I suggest that Upgrades that increase the number of infantry stands (Tactical, Assault, Devastator, Veteran, Terminator, Daemonic Pact) change the formation's initiative to 2+? It would represent the slightly more unwieldy command structure, and provide a balancing factor against other armies.


Organisation
Here's my suggested tweaks to the organisation.

SPACE MARINE COMPANIES
Battle Company – Eight Heresy Tactical units – Any
Bike Company – Eight Heresy Bike units –
Armoured Company Six Heresy Land Raiders or Heresy Predators, in any combination –


SPACE MARINE COMPANY SUPPORT
Up to two Support upgrades may be taken by each Company formation. Each may be taken only once by each formation
Assault – Add four Heresy Assault units
Daemonic Pact – The formation may summon Daemons from the Daemon Pool
Devastators – Add four Heresy Devastator units
Dreadnoughts – Add one or two Dreadnoughts
Tacticals – Add four Heresy Tacticals
Terminators – Add up to four Heresy Terminators
Veterans – Add up to four Heresy Veterans
Support Weapons – Four Heresy Anti-Tank Support Weapons and four Heresy Anti-Personnel Support Weapons


SPACE MARINE UPGRADES
Each Upgrade may be taken only once by each formation
Commander – Add a Commander to the formation. One Commander may be a Supreme Commander for an additional +50 points.
Dreadclaws – Add enough Dreadclaws to transport the formation
Rhinos – Add exactly enough Rhinos to carry all non infantry units in the formation
that are still without transport after all other transport upgrades are accounted for
Land Raiders – Add up to four Heresy Land Raiders
Predators – Add one or two Heresy Predators


SPACE MARINE ELITES
(A Horus Heresy army may contain one Elite formation for each Space Marine Company)
FORMATION CORE UNITS UPGRADES COST
Dreadnoughts – Six Heresy Dreadnoughts – None
Raptors – Six Heresy Raptors – Daemonic Pact
Terminators Four Heresy Terminators All
Veterans – Six Heresy Veterans – All
Recon Detachment – Five Heresy Land Speeders or Heresy Jetbikes, in any combination – Commander
Super-Heavy Detachment – One to three Heresy Fellblades or Heresy
Decimators, in any combination – Commander


AIRCRAFT AND SPACE CRAFT
Thunderhawk Flight – Three Thunderhawks – None
Stormbird – One Heresy Stormbird – None
(0-1) Strike Cruiser One Heresy Strike Cruiser – None

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Apologist


That does rather summarize things.



Well, the Black Legion manages to wander around at Initiative 1+ (I know it says 2+, but they get +1 when they don't hate each other), and they have some pretty big units (max size of nineteen infantry, plus vehicles).

However, a maximum possible size of twenty-eight is probably a bit much. I'd been thinking of a few possibilities:
-Combining the Tactical and Assault upgrades, then limiting that to six (or four) - that'd create a maximum infantry size of twenty-two (or twenty), which is big but not too crazy (and its sheer expense should help keep costs down).
-Getting rid of the Devastator upgrade and creating one or two more company options. Instead of Tac/Bike/Armour, have Tac/Bike/Assault (8 Assault or 4 Tac 4 and Assault)/Fire Support (4 Tac and 4 Dev), moving Armour to Support.
-Some combination of the above.



Egregiously ripped off for 0.2.

The rest of it...I'm trying to stick as close to the Black Legion structure as possible, since they're (logically) the closest depiction we have of a Legion in Epic (barring Space Marine-era stuff, anyway). Also, having two different kinds of upgrades seems like it might confuse folk. It kind of confuses me.

Which didn't stop me from moving some stuff around anyway, mind you.



Hey, it gives them some personality (and the Legions were fairly distinct) without actually requiring different army lists. Some legions have iconic quirks and methods that deserve a little more. And the others get something out of fairness. It's also (to some extent) the natural extension of the Cult marines in Black Legion lists.



Oops. That's unintentional.



Weren't you the one who wanted me to create a two-tier upgrade system?

I want to be able to represent a fairly wide variety of structures. That has the downside of making the upgrades a little messy, but I'd rather do that than create multiple lists.

So. Plans for 0.2: Fewer upgrades, slightly smaller maximum unit sizes, possibly more basic companies.

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0.2 is now up.

Changes:
New units: Space Wolf Heroes, Blood Angel Sanguinary Guard, Sons of Horus Drop Cadre, and the Harpy Interceptor (mentioned in passing in Apocalypse).
New formations: Assault Company, Fire Support Company, Harpy Squadron, Thunderhawk Flight
Recategorizing: Raptors are now Support, as are Armoured Companies
Upgrades: The Assault and Tactical upgrades were combined, as were the Veteran and Terminator upgrades. Terminator and Veteran formations now have more limited access to upgrades. Up to three Predators can now be purchased. Vindicators were added (since I forgot them last time)
Amendments: Assault units should NOT have had jump packs, and no longer do.
Special Rules: Defenders of Humanity added. Legions and Factions combined.
Costs: Various increases to account for the addition of Defenders of Humanity

PDF DOWNLOAD - HORUS HERESY 0.2

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I like it.
the vindicator was 'invented' during the heresy, so it's appropriate for late heresy battles.

I think the demons take up too much space for a relatively unimportant part of the list, but other wise it looks interesting.

I know demons were present during the siege but so were hordes of mutants, cultists, spawns, demon engines ect. Leave them to the LatD list. keep the focus Marine.

OR

Speaking of focus, why not just include a permanent formation of demons in the allies section? Avoids the whole summoning rules palaver and makes for a neater list I think.

*Blush* Yeah, guilty as charged.
Avoiding multiple lists is a very desirable trait.

Daemons
Madd0ct0r makes a good point, and I'd agree with this in particular:


0.2
Fire Support
What's the reasoning behind the Fire Support Company being made up of two different unit types? I don't disagree with it, just curious.


Unit types
 I'd consider jetbikes more of an upgrade to bikes (giving them skimmer), rather than a different unit.
 Similarly, Raptors could be an upgrade to Assault Marines (giving them jump pack).
 With the loss of the post-Heresy Predator Annihilator, perhaps there's a space for the Sabre? This was a tank destroyer based on the Rhino chassis (a nice example of a converted Sabre), which would be fitting and make a good anti-tank addition.
Perhaps use the Imperial Guard Vanquisher (AP4+/AT2+) on a Vindicator chassis (i.e. speed 25cm) as the basis?
 Will the Whirlwind make an appearance? These were very definitely pre-Heresy. Also, as it stands, the formations have no ground-based AA. There's mention in the Whirlwind background that they were pressed into service as anti-aircraft vehicles (fairly ineffectively), so perhaps they could be an upgrade with AA5+?

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Re: Daemons

They do take up a lot of space. I wouldn't want to eliminate them completely (since they're rather important to the Word Bearers, among others). Ways to pare them down would be welcome, however.

I could go 'all-generic' - get rid of the Faction rules, add a generic close combat daemon and a generic greater daemon.

An allied formation of daemons is an option, though it feels a little strange to just have them be another formation.



If it was eight Devastators, who'd buy anything else?

That, and it just...felt right.



I can certainly see the reasoning on it. I made them LVs since models can be difficult to come by (or, alternately, convert), and that way you need fewer of them.



My impression has always been that Raptors were highly independent elite units even before they went all insular and Chaosy. Mixing them in with other formations seems odd, IMO.



It'd be a nice unit, and I could just merge it into the Vindicator upgrade.



You know, I thought they were post-Heresy, but the only sources I can find that speak to it imply pre-Heresy. Hmmm.

On the one hand, it's another damn unit. On the other hand, they were there. Drat. Ah well. At least it's another support choice!

The real question - units of four or units of eight?

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Whirlwinds

For an exhaustive list of Crusade and Heresy-era vehicles, try The Great Crusade's Q&A. Here's the relevant thread, complete with sources
Clicky Link


I think eight might result in my regular opponent throttling me! I'd advise four, because that's the standard size for Astartes vehicle squadrons according to the Imperial Armour series (also Dreadnought squadrons, according to Rogue Trader.)


Daemons


Perhaps a Commander option that allows daemons as upgrades; or a Possessed company formation? Hmm....

Jetbikes

Fair enough. I'm not a huge fan of real-world issues being a reason for restricting the list, but I'm such a design philosophy will be appreciated by some!


Raptors
Jump Pack troops were rare during the Heresy and Crusade eras, being restricted to elite formations, but as far as I'm aware, it was only post-Heresy when they started banding together in Raptor packs, with their own cults. The background on them's a bit hazy, really. Certainly the Word Bearers and Luna Wolves used them relatively extensively (according to Horus Rising and The First Heretic, without them having much mystique.


Good work - I'm lookign forward to giving it a playtest

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Interesting stuff.

Though I can't help but notice that it makes the Chaos codex's lack of most of the Space Marine codex's equipment even more obvious.

Fortunately, the Whirlwind's the only really egregious oversight. Everything else I've excluded is an upgrade (and thus an acceptable loss in the cause of keeping things from ballooning even more).



Four it shall be. Consider them in for 0.3, along with the Sabre (a Vindicator without Walker and with a Vanquisher for the same price, at the moment).

If you want to use them in the interim, just use the standard Whirlwind detachment as a support choice at 300 points. No upgrades.



I'd expect Daemons to be more common than Possessed during the Heresy - my impression is that mutation didn't become that common until after the Siege, when the Traitors were retreating into the Eye and the Gods got all cranky.

I could try paring down the existing summoning rules more - taking out the faction rules and having generic daemons would cut about 25% by itself, and the wording can be tightened even further.



I'm not entirely a fan of it either, but until somebody starts making appropriate jetbikes it's a lot more practical! Plus, I can always just retcon the LVs into Chariot jetbikes and add infantry jetbikes if models do appear.



They were still elitist snobs even before the Heresy, though - elite units with specialized missions and an even more special opinion of themselves. Tying them down to support of other units (which is what I'd see a mixed formation as) doesn't necessarily conflict, but it doesn't seem compelled, either. And I'm too upgrade-happy as it is.



I'm looking forward to seeing/hearing about it.

Hint hint.

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Well I was thinking in the allied section, you could have a 200 pt standard LatD mutant coven (with aspiring champion) and a 200pt Bound demons with dark Chaplin / summoner / sorcerer ect. Due to the binding ritual (implied possessed?) and the attention of the gods, the demons are stable. at least for the duration of the battle
(since you gave everything demonic focus anyway, I don't see that as an issue)

8 stands of lesser demons for 200pts (at a guess) - all must be the same type.
The only time I can think of where demons have been used like this is Chroma's Demonworld list.
I can understand if you don't want to mess with the flavour.

BUT

it's dead simple, less faff but it lets you have your World Eaters with their bloodletters, the Word Bearers with their traitor guard and demonic friends, Ravenguard with their accidental freaks, alt-universe Ultramarines with their slave levy...


I'll stop poking you now.