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Horus Heresy 0.3

 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:40 am 
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Is the list merely a Chaos representation of a Heresy list?

I ask because Daemonic Pact is available to base units. Can I have Daemons with the Ultramarines Honour Guard?

If you are going further with Legion specifics, there may be more you can do with different legion; one example is World Eaters not being able to take Librarians and depending how far into the Heresy you want to take it, perhaps no Chaplains as well.

That is just a quick review while at work. Also you sure about the pricing on eight tacticals for only 225 points? That is far better than the Chaos list I think.

No ATSKNF?

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:18 am 
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How about Wolf Guard for Space Wolves? Optional Terminator/Power armour choice to allow flexible points changes? You could perhaps make them a retinue/unit only for the Wolf Lord which grants the Lord a few spiffier stats for the heroes surrounding the lord..? Or they could be stand alone formation... <shrug>


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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:43 am 
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What about giving Space Wolves access to an additional character (Wolf Champion?) they can add to their formations? Space Wolves have lots of heroes...


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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:18 am 
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Check out the Horus Heresy card game. There's a plenty of hints/ideas for things to call stuff too.

Here's an online card list with clickable images
http://www.pa-sy.com/hhccg/


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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:35 am 
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Huzzah! Replies! :)

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Quote:
Is the list merely a Chaos representation of a Heresy list?

I ask because Daemonic Pact is available to base units. Can I have Daemons with the Ultramarines Honour Guard?


You (currently) can, for two reasons:
1) It allows for alternate heresies and such things.
2) If I have to tell you the Ultramarines didn't use Daemons and so you shouldn't, you're kind of missing the point anyway. :P

Quote:
If you are going further with Legion specifics, there may be more you can do with different legion; one example is World Eaters not being able to take Librarians and depending how far into the Heresy you want to take it, perhaps no Chaplains as well.


Honestly, the Librarian fluff is so messed up I don't want to touch it. That, and the same answer I gave for #2, above. :)

Plus, Slaves to Darkness had Khorne Librarians tallying skulls for Khorne. And that's too awesome for me to completely eliminate it.

Quote:
That is just a quick review while at work. Also you sure about the pricing on eight tacticals for only 225 points? That is far better than the Chaos list I think.


Depends how much you think a Lord is worth (I assumed 50). I may not have the most current version of the Chaos list.

Quote:
No ATSKNF?


Nope. If I did that, I'd have to either give it to Chaos or come up with two lists. This is simpler. Plus, it means I have something to give the Ultramarines.

* * *

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How about Wolf Guard for Space Wolves? Optional Terminator/Power armour choice to allow flexible points changes? You could perhaps make them a retinue/unit only for the Wolf Lord which grants the Lord a few spiffier stats for the heroes surrounding the lord..? Or they could be stand alone formation... <shrug>


Wolf Guard, maybe. Having choices would be tricky - everybody gets one unit, so I'd have to represent it as one. Which would be odd.

What do you think of Signal's champion suggestion?

Quote:
Check out the Horus Heresy card game. There's a plenty of hints/ideas for things to call stuff too.


Good thinking. Thanks. :)

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Signal
What about giving Space Wolves access to an additional character (Wolf Champion?) they can add to their formations? Space Wolves have lots of heroes...[/quote]

It's an interesting thought. An additional cheap character (25 points). Add a power weapon attack. Maybe leader. Seems appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:39 am 
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Twas just an idea. Make the Wolf Guard terminator based then ;) or combine the Champion and the Wolf Guard idea and add it to the unit's stats...?? In effect most champions get absorbed by the Wolf Guard at some point anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:56 am 
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And it's a decent one. Could do a character who IS Champion with Wolf Guard - give him two Extra Attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:17 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
And it's a decent one. Could do a character who IS Champion with Wolf Guard - give him two Extra Attacks.

Then you get into who's chapters d*#k is bigger than who's. I would rather keep it simple (same) stats where possible and leave the fluff to the formations (if possible).

And I forgot about no champion in the cost :P.

As for Ultramarines with daemons - why the hell not! Afterall history may have well been different due to the victors writing the history. :D

I am sure I will come back with more stuff when I sit down with the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:30 am 
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Space Wolves

I'd go with the leader idea, its a cracker. Just treat the leaders as the Imperial Guard treat commisars.

ATSKNF

Back in the old days everyone was a hero fresh from the great crusade. Making the Ultramarines the only guys with this ability is a tad unfair and potentially bias. I'd like all the legions to have it. Then use a unique unit to distinguish between them.

Daemons

I'd be pretty keen on making this a pure Marine list. I'd also strip out chaplains and librarians. Then the Thousand Sons could use the librarian as a unique unit and the word bearers a chaplain as a unique unit.

Alternatively if daemons are being used make them a special unit. Have a 'Choose your allegiance' box with Rebel allowing access to the daemon formation and Loyalist allowing access to another unit. That way if I want to replay the Isstvan purge and use a loyalist World Eater army I can. I can even do World Eater vs World Eater then without them being too similar.

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:04 pm 
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You'd be running into the twin problems of a Black legion list with ATSKNF, and trying to find something equally as useful as the demon/summoning rules for loyalists that would fit with the background.

Regarding the demon issue; from what I remember, at this point in time, the Horus supporters were by and large still divorced from the warp, having yet to live in the Eye of Terror for millennia, and hence demons were much rarer. Dropping demons would be an obvious point of differentiation to drive ten millennia old the point home, but is removing a unique and fun part of the list(s).


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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:35 am 
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MikeT wrote:
Regarding the demon issue; from what I remember, at this point in time, the Horus supporters were by and large still divorced from the warp, having yet to live in the Eye of Terror for millennia, and hence demons were much rarer.

True to an extent, however Terra was attacked on mass with Daemons and Daemon Engines (I believe - I have to go back and re-read it and look at the artwork again).

I do understand what you are saying however and it is probably a better idea for Daemonic Pact not to be a part of the unit as a base cost. You should always have to spend the +25 points if you want it - therby reducing the formation's base cost. That would solve this issue as players may find a better use for the points.

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:10 am 
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The thing about ATSKNF is that (apparently) the Codex makes the Marines of today more coordinated et al. Plus, large ATSKNF formations are trickier to balance. No ATSKNF, none of those issues.

In regard to Daemons - the amount available is somewhat less than that in the BL list (and it's the Word Bearers'), and Augment Summoning is harder to come by - so Greater Daemons will be less common. There were definitely daemons in the Siege, and so they should probably be in the list. Though I admit I'm not sure Chaplains should give Daemonic Focus as well as Augment Summoning (it costs extra, for them to do that, of course).

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:35 am 
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I would really like to see the below idea instigated in some way that may actually solve the augment summoning issue for this list:

- Remove Augment Summoning and Greater Daemons replace a stand in the formation! As you are taking away a unit (and thereby a cost) you could just reduce the summoning points required for the Greater daemon yet keep their 100 point cost! So if you get 2D3 summoning, make a GD 5 or 6 summoning points. It would show the raw nature of summoning back in the Heresy days (perhaps). Just yet another idea ;)

As for Daemonic Focus - probably just take it out altogether and make it a special ability for the Word Bearers

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:22 am 
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also, while i understand they've been around for some time since, and chaos provides plenty of opportunities to learn, if all the heresy legions Knew No Fear, why have the naught half of them 'figured it out' since?

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:01 am 
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frogbear
Quote:
- Remove Augment Summoning and Greater Daemons replace a stand in the formation! As you are taking away a unit (and thereby a cost) you could just reduce the summoning points required for the Greater daemon yet keep their 100 point cost! So if you get 2D3 summoning, make a GD 5 or 6 summoning points. It would show the raw nature of summoning back in the Heresy days (perhaps). Just yet another idea ;)


Not a bad thought. My one objection would be that that makes it inconsistent with the other Daemon-using lists, and I'm generally trying to be consistent where possible (the Daemon rules are messy enough without mine being actually different).

+25 for Augment Summoning +2 (or perhaps +3) on a Chaplain gives you the chance for a Greater Daemon, but not a good chance. And it lets the Word Bearers really clean up with Fanatic formations, which feels appropriate IMO.

Quote:
As for Daemonic Focus - probably just take it out altogether and make it a special ability for the Word Bearers


I think I likely will. Everyone needs access to Greater Daemons (though not necessarily MUCH access). Not everyone needs access to PERMANENT daemons. :P

I'm going to wait for a bit more feedback before making changes, though. I did too many versions of the Apocrypha, and it drove me slightly crazy.

Slightly, I swear. ;)

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Quote:
also, while i understand they've been around for some time since, and chaos provides plenty of opportunities to learn, if all the heresy legions Knew No Fear, why have the naught half of them 'figured it out' since?


Sorry, what? I think you're missing a "not" in there somewhere. :)

If you're saying "if Heresy Legions knew no fear, how did the current ones forget": the answer is selfishness and sloth. And bad table manners.

Or it's all Abaddon's fault. Yeah. That sounds plausible. ;)

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