Don't beat a dead horse.
Carry on on topic please

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Wow...

You don't think you were a bit rude to Zombo there dude?

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No I don't



If I have hurt anybodies feelings, PM me

Future posts on topic please

For certain reasons ( >:D ) I would like to discuss the unit types for DreadKnights and Dreadnoughts!

Currently in the list:
Dreadnought
option1: Two Twinlinked autocannons (2x 45cm AP4+/AT5+, the typical 40k setup used with GK dreads one of four weapons in the army that exceeds 30cm rangethe others are on land raider razorback and stormraven)
option 2: Multimelta and Nemesis doomfist (15cm MW, small arms such as a land speeder, the default 40k setup, good setup for storm raven transport)
75 points

DreadKnight
2x Nemesis doomfist (MW CC4+ weapons)
Gatling Psilencer (kinda useless)
Heavy Psycannon (AP4/AT4)
Jump pack 30cm and can teleport
100 pts


Dreadnought proposal is to change one of the Dreadnoughts options to having the forgeworld style Psycannon and nemesis doomfist (looks pimp, is somewhat already available especially over the next six days ;-) ) - which dreadnought to change? or should it just have the space marines statted dreadnoughts available, psy(assault)cannon and nemesis doom(power)fist option and missile/lascannon option?
Also dropping fortitude skill and rolling back extra vehicular costs, so dreadnoughts become 50 pts.


Nemesis Dreadknight Proposal is to have two variants of the dreadknight weapons, and to drop the jump pack (move back to 15cm) keeping telelport. In doing this they lose the ability to keep pace with Interceptor jump pack troops and rhinos, but, gain the ability to garrison and can still teleport anyways.
Also with dropping of jump pack and fortitude, potentially put price down to 75 pts- but in doing so they become ~ terminator priced- which probably works out: their armour is a point worse, the have one point worse to hit in CC, but they have 2x CC attacks.

So dreadknight weapons:
All of the close combat weapons, i think, are much the same muchness in epic- they are huge nemesis force weapons and they wield two of them. I don't think they need their own rules- but could be available as a mix of weapon options for modeling purposes thatdo the same thing.
So shooty weapons- the gatling psilencer is a bit of a pissy weapon, probably don't need to have that there with only 3 weapons available in 40k.

So my proposal, if having two dreadknight variants, is to have two types of dreadknights-
one with heavy psycannon ( 30cm AP4+/AT4+) and nemesis weapons
one with heavy incinerator (15cm AP4+ ignore cover, small arms EA+1 ignore cover) and nemesis weapons

Well, the 2nd one there is a lot better than the 1st, so they'd have to cost different ammounts.

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or can drop the ea+1 aspect to make it the same as a regular incinerator costing different amounts is too fiddly

That'd be better.

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I am probably in the minority here but here goes anyways...

The whole idea of all this should be to keep it simple and to make it affordable. It should not be to find the best combos and account for all situations - it has been said before, the list should have weaknesses.

I do not believe there is a need for 2 Dreadnight Variants. Pick one.

Losing Jump Pack off the Dreadnight so it can garrison etc and the fact that it is trumped by its teleport power is just bad luck IMO. The drop in Jump Pack is not enough of a drop to justify the 25 points. As the ability is pretty much redundant on a tactical front, gaining the ability to garrison is far more important (you can overwatch) and therefore I see no justification for a 25 point drop.

As for the Dreadnought, once again, just one variant. If you do not need any more CC or FF, then make it a support with some actual range. Otherwise go the other route.

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The list has some inherent weaknesses (vs other space marines) in that the maximum range of weapons for all infantry is only 30cm, and they don't have access to fast movers like bikes and land speeders (interceptor grey knights and the slightly expensive storm ravens, are there to fill that role though) so for the most part- if you want to shoot, you have to put yourself in more dangerous situations. I think it may be a list where people would like to take a land raider formation for once! And that is cool.

I think at the very least the psycannon/fist dreadnought can replace the multimelta fist dreadnought- the fist is fine for stormraven air assaults, the model looks cooler. Rule of cool is important!
So I guess the question is, whether to leave in that 45cm range dreddy, as that would make any infantry formation have that extra 15cm zone of fire, and essentially make them play like a regular space marine formation again.

The dreadknight options- i have listed there the thought of having two separate option configurations so it's open for discussion- personally i think it should have both weapons on the one unit and not an either/or. with a move of only 15cm and an only 15cm range on the incinerator (and no AT), once they have teleported in and busted some ass, an incinerator only unit won't be of very much use in zone control. The dreadknights in 40k have multiple weapon options but basically function as a heavy all-rounder no matter what combination you choose (can tackle infantry hordes, heavy infantry, tanks, or monstrous creatures).

For a close combat force (which this is) the large spatterings of Teleport more than make up for 30cm range and fast movers (if you have teleported to where you need to be). You have to make the list for a tournament outlook and as it stands, Teleport on turn 2 or 3 is how I see this list functioning. I guess that is just the reality for how GW are now selling the GK as - a blitzkrieg insertion force rather than the Inquisition variant that would make use of ground forces.

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Yep the 30cm range for the force is more of a limitation/direction of play (and thinking more on this I am beginning to tip toward the one psycannon/fist dreadnought type). I have not had much gaming success with late game teleporting/air assault a whole force myself nor late drop podding of regular marines but I think that is just me. But a combination of footers, transported GK's and some teleporters to support strikes works very nice. I very much like thunderhawk transporters carting rhinos within this list, play wise. It seems to play well in 3 ways thus far (which I am happy about, means more of the options get used and it can be played in different ways).

I am yet to play with titans in the list but lots of playing to do to test other aspects anyways.

Oh yes, I forgot all about the Thunderhawks!

Thunderhawks and Teleport - that is all you need for an assault force to be quite competitive.

I do believe your plain bad luck (yes I have seen your games personally remember - get rid of those green dice) have not provided the examples for how this list plays. Replace the dice, and make a list up that takes you ~2-3 days worth of tweaking and I am sure you will start to see some nice results. If I was coming up against this army, I would be more than a little worried I would think. If anything, I would be counting on your green dice to do the job for me

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haha dude- i have been through 5 sets of dice. I actually bought straight edge dice that supposedly roll 100%- nope. It's my hands I need non-cursed playtesters
Rolling aircraft onto the board, teleporting tests and me do not get along. Anything requiring a 1, I dominate though

Now sir, I cannot allow this claim to my crown as the 'king' of '1's!
I demand satisfaction