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Imperial Fists Development 2

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:59 pm 
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Just working out what the stats are for the LR Achilles. Does this look correct?

Land Raider Achilles AV 25 cm 4+ 6+ 4+
Thunderfire Cannon 60cm 2xAP4+/AT6+
2x Twin Multi Meltas 15cm (15cm) MW4+ (MW)
Notes: Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Transport

I was wondering whether the twin multi meltas would give the Land Raider a FF3+

Also, I take it same transport capacity as a standard Land Raider?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:06 pm 
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Just by eyeballing it, I'd guess that it has little to no transport capacity.

I'd suggest a single MW 3+ FF attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:17 pm 
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Thanks E&C. I will leave transport off it for now as it will not be able to transport anyway.

Well the list is almost done to re-release. I will just go and clean up the boxes and release it tomorrow after I give it another once over

I will leave the titans as they are for now - minus the Warhounds.

Just as a (almost) final thought: What are peoples thoughts on formations of Dreadnoughts (price has gone up) backed up with a Vindicator upgrade? What of making other upgrades available to them such as Hunter or even Whirlwinds?

INF Marine points: Do they look fine to everyone or do some look wanting (seeing they do not have transports as a base)? I know SK mentioned that the Assault are over-priced...

Castellan: Sidelined for now. Let's go with the six Whirlwind formation and then we can introduce it at a later time.

It seems the rest of the list has had the living snot kicked out of it to reach the next revision so I guess we are almost at the point where people can take this list away to play - unless people can think of something that is missing?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:21 pm 
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Quote:
What are peoples thoughts on formations of Dreadnoughts (price has gone up)

Well for starters I'd keep them at 175pts. :)

Quote:
INF Marine points: Do they look fine to everyone or do some look wanting (seeing they do not have transports as a base)? I know SK mentioned that the Assault are over-priced...

Playtesting will show any problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I'd suggest a single MW 3+ FF attack.


Hmmm. Having a little trouble doing this as the weapon is: 2x Twin Multi Meltas 15cm (15cm) MW4+ (MW)

Any ideas? Otherwise place it back to FF4+ I guess.

It is an awesome formation up close. Especially if you add two Vindicators to take on any initial hits going up the table.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:29 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
What are peoples thoughts on formations of Dreadnoughts (price has gone up)

Well for starters I'd keep them at 175pts. :)


Do you think this is a problem for the Devs then? I am scratching my head as to why I would take Devs over Dreads.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:05 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
Do you think this is a problem for the Devs then? I am scratching my head as to why I would take Devs over Dreads.


Ok, coming into this late and others may have already discussed this, but what reason is there for me not to choose 14 Dread formations, 3 Thunderbolt formations and upgrade one dread formation with 2 extra dreads for a powergamers 17 activation Min-Max army? I could garrison most of the army up the table and just throw formations at my opponent.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Y'know what, I forgot that NetEA Dreads are Armour 3+ in arguing against a points rise... at armour 4+ that army would be good but beatable, I think... with armour 3+ it'd be too good.

So yeah, consider my opinion changed.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:49 pm 
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My biggest suggestion is that Hena moderate a discussion of the field guns and come to a consensus on stats to use across army lists. Right now this list and Apocrypha are using some divergent stats.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Y'know what, I forgot that NetEA Dreads are Armour 3+ in arguing against a points rise... at armour 4+ that army would be good but beatable, I think... with armour 3+ it'd be too good.

So yeah, consider my opinion changed.

And that's why sometimes you just have to say "this is good enough" and accept that some internal balance issues are off. 3+ dreadnoughts are solely to make them useful in the Codex list but it's a source of point inflation in lists where dreads' roles can be optimized.

4 Dreads with 3+ armor definitely worth 250 points (possibly more).

Shooty ones have the same firepower as Devs. Better armor plus AV status makes them darn near twice as tough. Walker ability so they can take advantage of most of the same kinds of terrain. They have better CC, so that removes a weakness. They lose on FF ability and transport. Overall, I'd rate them better than Devs unless you want a highly mobile formation. That's 250 points, easy.

Assault dreads have 3/4 the CC power of Termies, are almost as tough and have the same air assault ability (which I realize is not an issue in this list, but you see the point). That puts them at ~250 points for the initial assault. At range, they have about half the firepower but AV status on top of their armor value makes them just as tough as the infantry Termies, so the follow on abilities after an air insert would also put them at ~250 versus the Termies' @ 350.


Last edited by nealhunt on Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Eh, I'm fine with there not being a "Dreadcorn" list :-)

IE: I'd support a points increase on the formation!

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
frogbear wrote:
Do you think this is a problem for the Devs then? I am scratching my head as to why I would take Devs over Dreads.


Ok, coming into this late and others may have already discussed this, but what reason is there for me not to choose 14 Dread formations, 3 Thunderbolt formations and upgrade one dread formation with 2 extra dreads for a powergamers 17 activation Min-Max army? I could garrison most of the army up the table and just throw formations at my opponent.

Similarly late :) my solution to this would be to restrict the Dreadnought formation to 0-1 per tactical formation (or similar). Purely from a 'fluff' perspective, one could even argue for 0-1 per army . . .

The main issue with this being that this kind of restriction diverges with the 'standard' style of Marine list


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:01 pm 
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Making it two of each helps reduce its value somewhat, though I'm not sure how far.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:45 pm 
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I'd be fine with 250pts as Neal suggests.

In addition I'd be dine with a "fluf cap" as suggested by Gavin.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:28 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
My biggest suggestion is that Hena moderate a discussion of the field guns and come to a consensus on stats to use across army lists. Right now this list and Apocrypha are using some divergent stats.

I notice that and figure some high ranking official will flag it.

But that bugs the poop out of me!


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